TPF: Dualism and Interactionism

[Gnomon]

The first thing I need to correct you on, is that energy is not measured it is calculated. Measurements are made, a formula is applied, and the quantity of energy is determined. Because of this, it is not accurate to talk about energy as a substance, it is actually a property, as a predication. — Metaphysician Undercover

I agree with your conclusion, but I'll stipulate that Energy is "measured" in terms of consumption, not substance.

Since a quantity of energy is calculated through a formula, and uncertainty arises from application of the formula, this suggests that the formula being applied is in some way deficient, and this is the cause of the appearance of uncertainty. — Metaphysician Undercover

The quantum pioneers considered the possibility that their calculations were somehow "deficient", but the "uncertainty" remains a century later. In fact, the Copenhagen Interpretation is based on that admission of the inherent "limitation" due to the statistical nature of the non-particular wave-function. So, the "appearance" of subatomic (i.e. fundamental) Uncertainty and Unpredictability appears to be a natural fact.


Uncertainty principle :
It states that there is a limit to the precision with which certain pairs of physical properties, such as position and momentum, can be simultaneously known.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle

Copenhagen Interpretation :
The Copenhagen interpretation refers to concepts such as Bohr complementarity and the correspondence principle, Born statistical interpretation of the wave function, and nondeterminism.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/ma ... rpretation

Due to the "spooky action at a distance" that annoyed Einstein, sub-atomic physics defies common sense. But pragmatic physicists gradually learned to accept that Nature did not necessarily play by our man-made rules. — Gnomon
This is especially the case when the "man-made rules" are not well crafted. . . . . Strong evidence that the formulas being applied are deficient. — Metaphysician Undercover

Are you aware of some better-crafted or non-man-made rules that will make the non-mechanical quantum actions less spooky? Do you know of alternative formulas that are more efficient?

[Gnomon]

Although he spoke of nature gods, they were more like Spinoza's deus sive natura than the anthro-morphic gods of Greece*2. That's why I interpret Metaphysics in terms of abstract philosophical concepts*3 instead of socio-cultural religious precepts* — Gnomon
I don't agree with your first sentence; I don't see Spinoza as an animist or a pantheist. And I don't know what your second sentence is attempting to say; surely metaphysics is to be found both in philosophy and in religion, no? Are you just saying that you personally prefer to focus on the philosophical context of metaphysical ideas rather than the religious context? — Janus

If not Pantheism, how would you describe Spinoza's concept of "deus sive natura"*1, which equates Nature with god-like creative powers? I agree that Spinoza's notion of an animating power in nature is far more sophisticated than primitive "attribution of a soul to plants, inanimate objects, and natural phenomena". But my reference to Aristotle & Spinoza was intended to make a distinction between philosophical Meta-physics and dogmatic Religion*2. Meta-Physics, with a hyphen, is about Mind, while Catholic metaphysics is about Soul.

That religious association came almost a millenium later, when Catholic theologians looked to Aristotle as an authority on both Natural science and the Cultural science we now know as Philosophy. Because their Bible had little to say about those abstract topics. As I interpret his works, Aristotle's Metaphysics was philosophical, not religious*3.

But several posters on this forum seem to prejudicially equate them, and denigrate speculative Philosophy of Mind in deference to empirical Science of Matter. Hence, I use Meta-Physics in reference to immaterial abstract subjective philosophical topics --- such as this thread --- by contrast to the material concrete objects of scientific study. So, my "personal preference" is to dissociate Catholic Metaphysics from Aristotle's Meta-Physics*4.


*1. Deus sive natura :
The slogan of Spinoza's pantheism : the view that god and nature are interchangeable, or that there is no distinction between the creator and the creation.
https://www.oxfordreference.com › display › authorit...

*2. Deus Sive Natura :
The first point is that in the Aristotelian conception, nature is in no way a transcendent notion . . .
https://www.jstor.org/stable/3751565

*3. Philosophy vs Religion :
Philosophy is the most critical and comprehensive thought process developed by human beings. It is quite different from religion in that where Philosophy is both critical and comprehensive, Religion is comprehensive but not necessarily critical.
https://www.qcc.cuny.edu/socialsciences ... ligion.htm

*4. Meta-physics :
The branch of philosophy that examines the nature of reality, including the relationship between mind and matter, substance and attribute, fact and value.
1. Often dismissed by materialists as idle speculation on topics not amenable to empirical proof.
2. Aristotle divided his treatise on science into two parts. The world as-known-via-the-senses was labeled “physics” - what we call "Science" today. And the world as-known-by-the-mind, by reason, was labeled “metaphysics” - what we now call "Philosophy" .
3. Plato called the unseen world that hides behind the physical façade: “Ideal” as opposed to Real. For him, Ideal “forms” (concepts) were prior-to the Real “substance” (matter).
4. Physics refers to the things we perceive with the eye of the body. Meta-physics refers to the things we conceive with the eye of the mind. Meta-physics includes the properties, and qualities, and functions that make a thing what it is. Matter is just the clay from which a thing is made. Meta-physics is the design (form, purpose); physics is the product (shape, action). The act of creation brings an ideal design into actual existence. The design concept is the “formal” cause of the thing designed.
5. I use a hyphen in the spelling to indicate that I am not talking about Ghosts and Magic, but about Ontology (science of being).
https://blog-glossary.enformationism.info/page14.html

[Gnomon]

More panentheist than pantheist; I think Spinoza understood God to be both immanent to and transcendent of nature, and by that, I mean transcendent of nature as we know it; knowing which is exclusively under the attributes of extensa and cogitans. Spinoza believed those are just the two of God's infinite attributes that we humans can know. Have you read Spinoza's Ethics? — Janus

No, I haven't read any of Spinoza's writings. Most of what I know comes from books and articles about his life & philosophy. And the general impression I got was that his deus sive natura description was intended to avoid attributing any transcendent or super-natural characteristics to his nature-god, hence Pantheism or more accurately PanDeism.

But centuries later, we now have a more comprehensive and detailed understanding of the natural world, including scientific evidence that our physical cosmos is not eternal, but had a sudden, something-from-nothing beginning, not in Time, but of Time. So, with that additional information, I have developed a PanEnDeistic worldview, that postulates some kind of Causal Power and Logical Laws that existed before the Big Bang beginning of our little bubble of space-time.

Beyond that logical implication, I know nothing of the interpolated deus super natura, that Plato called First Cause, and Aristotle labelled Prime Mover. So, it's just a philosophical conjecture, not the kind of god that would require human worship or sacrifice. I think even Einstein would have approved, once he became adapted to the then-emerging notion of an expanding physical universe, gradually evolving from a mathematically defined creation event. His next question would be : "what caused the bang?"

[Gnomon]

"Appears to be a natural fact", doesn't get us anywhere. it always appeared to be a natural fact, but that's irrelevant. The fact is that "uncertainty" is a property of the subject, not the object. And, it is always caused by the subject's mode of understanding not being properly suited to the reality of the object which it is attempting to apprehend. It makes no sense to blame the object here, therefore the subject's mode of understanding needs to be scrutinized. — Metaphysician Undercover

I agree that our subjective "mode of understanding" is suspect, but in the expression "natural fact", I was referring to the scientific evidence that Nature is inherently statistical (random chance) in its fundamental behaviors*1. Some might interpret the statistical nature of waveforms as a sign that coin-flipping Luck is a feature of natural processes. Hence, a smidgen of doubt smudged the surety of classical physics.

But another way to look at it, is to see that the indeterminate structure of quantum nature provides degrees of freedom*2 for the creative non-linear development of evolution. Quantum nature has been proven to be probabilistic (uncertain) instead of deterministic (certain). Einstein objected that his Spinozan nature-god didn't play dice. But Heisenberg's quantum-nature-god begged to differ. And Bohr answered, "Einstein, stop telling God what to do."

So nobody is "blaming the object" ; merely accepting that statistical probabilistic uncertainty is inherent intrinsic immanent in physical Nature. So, if we are going to blame anybody, pin the puzzlement on Newton, who defined physics in no uncertain terms*4. Or on Heisenberg who pulled-up the rug to reveal the squishy dicey foundations of physics.



*1. What Is Statistical Significance? :
“Statistical significance helps quantify whether a result is likely due to chance or to some factor of interest,” says Redman. When a finding is significant, it simply means you can feel confident that’s it real, not that you just got lucky (or unlucky) in choosing the sample.
https://hbr.org/2016/02/a-refresher-on- ... gnificance
Note --- Heisenberg defined the lack of confidence in quantum interpretations as Uncertainty on the part of the observer. But the source of that feeling in the observer is the unpredictability of the object being observed.

*2. Quantum nature not absolutely deterministic :
The wave function is a function of the degrees of freedom corresponding to some maximal set of commuting observables. Once such a representation is chosen, the wave function can be derived from the quantum state.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave_function

*3. Quantum Universe: Fundamentally Probabilistic, Not Deterministic :
Einstein believed that the universe and its laws must be strictly deterministic. He felt that there could be no role for probability or chance, in nature's foundation. This is why Einstein didn't accept or agree with the theory of quantum mechanics.
https://www.wondriumdaily.com/quantum-u ... rministic/

*4. Determinism vs Probability :
Determinism in the West is often associated with Newtonian mechanics/physics, which depicts the physical matter of the universe as operating according to a set of fixed laws.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism

[Gnomon]

The whole idea that coin-flipping is evidence of natural random chance is fundamentally flawed. The production of this random chance type of event is intentionally designed, as are all examples of such random chance generators, so these examples do nothing to support the claim of naturally occurring random chance events. — Metaphysician Undercover

OK, but I was using the term "coin-flipping" metaphorically, not literally. Einstein used the similar metaphor of God playing dice, to ridicule the quantum evidence that Nature is inherently indeterminate*1*2. Also, I was not talking about un-natural Random Number Generators. Instead, I was referring to the innate Quantum Indeterminacy that provoked Heisenberg to define his Uncertainty Principle in terms of statistical Probability*3.

Since you found my implication that Nature is not rigidly Deterministic problematic, are you a strict classical Determinist*4 like Einstein? Newtonian physics was based on the, mathematically convenient, assumption of rigid laws controlling all actions in nature*5. But Quantum Physics demonstrated that Nature is more flexible than that*6. I even use the malleability of Nature as an argument in favor of FreeWill, and against Fate*7, for those who can manipulate the natural system culturally*7. But that's a topic for a different thread.


*1. Einstein's Determinism :
Like Spinoza, Einstein was a strict determinist who believed that human behavior was completely determined by causal laws.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious ... t_Einstein

*2. Does True Randomness Exist? :
Randomness as a fundamental property of nature: Also called True randomness, is when a phenomenon is intrinsically random and not dependent on our knowledge of the phenomenon.
https://medium.com/illumination/does-tr ... 2fc7f413dd

*3. Uncertainty principle :
The uncertainty principle, also known as Heisenberg's uncertainty principle, is a fundamental concept in quantum mechanics.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle

*4. Statistical Determinism :
According to classical determinism, the laws of nature are all strict rather than statistical, . . .
https://uh.edu/~psaka/sylla/stet.htm

*5. Quantum indeterminacy
Quantum indeterminacy is often understood as information (or lack of it) whose existence we infer, occurring in individual quantum systems, prior to measurement. Quantum randomness is the statistical manifestation of that indeterminacy, witnessable in results of experiments repeated many times.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_indeterminacy

*6. Bayesian Belief-based Probability :
Bayesian statistics mostly involves conditional probability, . . .
https://statswithr.github.io/book/the-b ... stics.html

*7. Randomness :
In ancient history, the concepts of chance and randomness were intertwined with that of fate. . . .Although randomness had often been viewed as an obstacle and a nuisance for many centuries, in the 20th century computer scientists began to realize that the deliberate introduction of randomness into computations can be an effective tool for designing better algorithms. In some cases, such randomized algorithms even outperform the best deterministic methods
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randomness

[Gnomon]

But the actual jumps seem to occur almost instantaneously. — Gnomon
No, they do not. They generate the light pulses we call photons, which have a finite duration in order to have a well-defined frequency (because of the uncertainty principle). So, we can tell how long the transitions take. Further, the transitions are much better described as wave phenomena than as particle phenomena. The electrons in each level have a well-defined energy and so a well-defined frequency. — Dfpolis

Did you notice that I qualified "instantaneous" with "almost". We're talking about Planck Time here. I suppose your definition of "instantaneous" is more rigidly rigorous than mine. Do you have a good reason for picking nits about metaphors?


Instantaneous :
The adjective instantaneous means “happening very quickly, in a single moment.”
https://www.britannica.com/dictionary/e ... difference

[Gnomon]

Do you have a good reason for picking nits about metaphors? — Gnomon
Yes, because the transition times can be calculated using the wave model. — Dfpolis

OK. I am duly chastened. I'm guilty of using physical concepts as philosophical metaphors . . . without doing the "calculations".

[Gnomon]

Symmetries are observed in nature. — Dfpolis
Symmetries are not observed in nature. — Metaphysician Undercover

Yes. Symmetries are not observed, but deduced. Like constellations in the sky, the inferred patterns are mental, not material ; subjective, not objective. It's good to be aware of that distinction when engaged in metaphysical discussions. Symmetries are, however, handy tools for mathematical analysis of topological transformations.

Since you found my implication that Nature is not rigidly Deterministic problematic, are you a strict classical Determinist*4 like Einstein? — Gnomon
No, I'm definitely not rigidly deterministic. I just find that the method you use to reach your conclusion is deeply flawed. — Metaphysician Undercover

Hmmm. What "method" was I using to reach the conclusion that Nature is not rigidly deterministic?? Actually, I'm not qualified to derive such a conclusion. I was just accepting the opinions of the scientists referenced in the quotes above below*2*3. I assume their reasoning was some combination of induction & deduction from experimental evidence or theoretical inference.

Quotes from my last post :

*2. Quantum nature not absolutely deterministic :
The wave function is a function of the degrees of freedom corresponding to some maximal set of commuting observables. Once such a representation is chosen, the wave function can be derived from the quantum state.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave_function

*3. Quantum Universe: Fundamentally Probabilistic, Not Deterministic :
Einstein believed that the universe and its laws must be strictly deterministic. He felt that there could be no role for probability or chance, in nature's foundation. This is why Einstein didn't accept or agree with the theory of quantum mechanics.
https://www.wondriumdaily.com/quantum-u ... rministic/

[Gnomon]

If these symmetries were deductions, then they would be faulty deductions, just like the ancient ideal that the orbits of the planets were perfect circles, therefore eternal circular motions. However, I do not think that such things are deductions. I think that they are mathematical principles or axioms which are not properly applied. So they are handy tools, as you say, but when they are applied where they ought not be applied, they become misleading. — Metaphysician Undercover

I'm not a physicist or topologist, so I'm not qualified to argue the question of "faulty deduction". Are you?

Symmetry is not very high on my list of philosophical subjects. So, I wonder what difference it makes to you whether such relationships are directly objectively observed or subjectively deduced/induced from other observations. Your strongly-worded opinions --- "faulty" ; "properly" ; "ought not" --- imply that it's a moral/ethical or true/false question for you. Are you suggesting that physical symmetry --- or its "application" to philosophy --- violates some higher rule of reality?

Now that sounds like a philosophical topic. Since symmetries are related to natural laws & physical structure, they may qualify as elements of cosmic ethics : e.g. real vs unreal ; observation vs illusion. Does your worldview imply that physical symmetries not just are, but ought to be one way or another? Does physical symmetry have a philosophical role in the Dualism vs Monism question?

The role of symmetry in fundamental physics :
Einstein’s great advance in 1905 was to put symmetry first, to regard the symmetry principle as the primary feature of nature that constrains the allowable dynamical laws. . . . Symmetry principles play an important role with respect to the laws of nature. They summarize the regularities of the laws that are independent of the specific dynamics.
https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.93.25.14256


The is-ought fallacy occurs when the assumption is made that because things are a certain way, they should be that way

[Gnomon]

↪Wayfarer
As with all natural science, it is a theoretical statement. The wave equations of quantum theory are well confirmed, and they are deterministic. — Dfpolis

Seems that you and ↪Wayfarer are looking at different parts of the same elephant : equations vs experiments. Maxwell's classical wave equation was clearly deterministic. That's why Schrödinger was perplexed when quantum measurements didn't confirm his classical expectations. The inescapable indeterminacy of quantum non-particles was famously illustrated in his Cat in the Box paradox.

PS___ The general question of Determinism may have some bearing on the question of genetic or social Interactionism. But I'm not qualified to pursue that angle. Maybe you can "teach" me.

What exactly is deterministic in Schrödinger's equation?
In quantum mechanics, the Schrödinger equation, which describes the continuous time evolution of a system's wave function, is deterministic. However, the relationship between a system's wave function and the observable properties of the system appears to be non-deterministic.
https://physics.stackexchange.com/quest ... s-equation

Are quantum processes deterministic? :
Does Quantum Mechanics Rule Out Free Will? - Scientific American
“In quantum mechanics,” she explains, “we can only predict probabilities for measurement outcomes, rather than the measurement outcomes themselves. The outcomes are not determined, so quantum mechanics is indeterministic. Superdeterminism returns us to determinism.”
https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... free-will/

Is superdeterminism a real thing?
In general, though, superdeterminism is fundamentally untestable, as the correlations can be postulated to exist since the Big Bang, making the loophole impossible to eliminate. - Wikipedia