TPF : World Fair & Just

[Gnomon]

The problem IMO is that you seem to want it both ways. On the one hand, the Whole, i.e.God in your view, is ultimately changeless. On the other hand, you seem to think that change is ultimately real for us and that we are free.
But my question is: how can our perception of change be veridical if the Whole (of which we are mere aspects or maybe 'parts') is changeless? how can we have free will, i.e. a degree of autonomy, if we are mere aspects/modes/parts of God, who is changeless? — boundless

Yes. I think we can have it both ways. But no, unlike Spinoza, I don't think G*D/Whole/Enfernity/Logos is changeless. A static do-nothing deity could not be creative, and our evolving world would not be compatible with an inert cosmos-creator. I don't have any empirical knowledge of anything outside of our space-time world. So anything I might say about Enfernity (eternity-infinity) is pure speculation. But, I would interpret Enfernity as unlimited & boundless, hence free to change in all possible ways. For all I know, a boundless Supreme Being might have created an infinite number of universes, with all possible modes of existence. But I don't waste my time trying to make sense of such literal non-sense.

Instead, I prefer to imagine the First Cause of our universe as an unlimited Pool of Potential, within which anything is Possible, but only certain things are Actual. And the process of Actualization is what we call Creation or Evolution. So, in the space-time world we actually know something about, homo sapiens seems to be the current highest-ranking mode of existence. But evolution is still on-going, so who-knows what kind of creature might, in the future, replace humanity at the top of the food chain (AI ; aliens)? At this point in time though, earthbound humans seem to have a much higher degree of freedom to choose from the menu of options the world has to offer. For example, brainy dolphins eat only fish, while we omnivores eat veggies, fish, beef and chicken.

That's not the FreeWill of an all-powerful deity, but it's enough to allow our species to be the dominant force in the real actual world. As the most invasive species, we even make our own night light to show aliens or gods where we live. In the 21st century, the whole Earth is our habitat, including the moon, and maybe Mars. So, we are not "mere modes of God", but the only "aspects" of God that rule the Real world with our god-like magical technology.



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[Gnomon]

↪Gnomon
In other words, are you saying that God/Whole determines all the possibilities but the actualities are determined or co-determined by the rational agents?
And maybe also by other phenomena?
In other words, God 'fixes' all the possible histories but the actual one is co-determined?
I'm not sure how this doesn't lead to a theistic or theistic-like perspective (i.e. that God creates and sustaines but at the same time the creatures maintain an identity that is distinct from the Creator), but I'll wait your answers before delving into this. — boundless

That's not what I'm saying. I assume that all actualities/realities can be traced back to the beginning of space-time. Beyond which we can only conjecture. And the Cause of that sudden appearance of limited spatial volume and temporal change from whatever came before that beginning (Enfernity??) is what we humans typically call "G*D" or "Multiverse".

During the expansion of space-time most emergent Actualities result from natural energy exchanges. But, since the recent advent of homo sapiens, some novelties in the world have been caused by human choices. That's what we call Culture as contrasted with Nature. Therefore, you could say that Cultural Evolution has been "co-determined" by rational agents. But I would not say that all actualities, or all phenomena, or all "actual histories" are determined by the "demi-gods" of the world.

I don't view that co-creator scenario as Theistic, but it is Deistic. It's specifically PanEnDeistic*1. And the causal agency in the world is what I call EnFormAction : causal energy + formal definition + actualization. The "hidden" source of that creative power is unknowable, except by inference from circumstantial evidence. So, any characteristics of the postulated Enformer are knowable only by philosophical speculation and rational deduction*2. Would Spinoza disagree?


*1. God Models :
Theistic : Direct revelation of divine will to humans.
Deistic : Indirect revelation of divine source via empirical observation of the creation. The Deity is assumed to have created an autonomous world that can run itself without divine intervention.
PanEnDeistic : First Cause is known by reason, not by revelation. Space-Time Reality exists within the scope of Enfernity (Infinity + Eternity). The material world and its inhabitants are participants in divine essence, but are not identical with the divine. We living thinking beings are distinguishable parts of the Whole Being, and not identical to the whole. For more information, Google "Mereology".

*2. Reason :
According to the German philosopher Immanuel Kant, reason is the power of synthesizing into unity, by means of comprehensive principles, the concepts that are provided by the intellect.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/reason
Note --- The necessary existence of a First Cause is a prime example of "synthesizing into unity" from observation of its knowable parts.

[Gnomon]

Still my question is: how can we have some degree of autonomy if we are not separate from the Whole? — boundless

From the perspective of the Whole, the parts may or may not have any freedom, depending on the rigidity of rules that bind the parts. But from the perspective of the parts, our degree of freedom is relative to the other parts. Since I am unable to speak for the Whole, I can only judge based on the current state and history of human actions. As to "how", I must assume that the binding chains of natural Cause & Effect have some "gaps" or "loopholes" that can be exploited by Autonomous Agents. Otherwise, we would all be locked-in rocks.

In his book Freedom Evolves, Daniel Dennett concluded that some degree of Free Will*1 is compatible with Natural Law. He refers to certain "abilities" of homo sapiens that allow us to make choices that are not dictated by physical laws. Among those abilities are Logic and Language. Regarding the rigidity of natural law, I'll just mention that Thermodynamics is based on statistical averages not specific instances*2, and Quantum physics is also statistical, not mechanical. So some slack (statistical loopholes) in the chain of Cause & Effect seems to be allowed.

In Biology, a cell, which is a part of an organism, can have some degree of autonomy*3, if it creates its own constraints : such as a cell wall. Humans create their own "constraints" in the form of Cultural Laws that do not contradict Natural Laws.


*1. Free Will :
Dennett's stance on free will is compatibilism with an evolutionary twist – the view that, although in the strict physical sense our actions might be determined, we can still be free in all the ways that matter, because of the abilities we evolved.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_Evolves

*2a. Limitation of statistics are :
Statistics is not concerned with individual observation.
Statistics do not analyse qualitative phenomenon.
Statistical generalisation are true only on average.
https://www.toppr.com/ask/question/what ... tatistics/
*2b.The Second Law of Thermodynamics is a statistical law of large numbers.
https://www.compadre.org/nexusph/course ... listic_Law

*3. Autonomous :
An organism is autonomous because it creates the set of constraints responsible for its own constitutive activities that maintain its existence.
https://link.springer.com/article/10.10 ... 21-09829-8

PS___ Pay no attention to dogmatic Spinozist ↪180 Proof
. He doesn't make philosophical arguments, just haughty assertions and Trump-like political attacks.

[Gnomon]

PERSONAL MESSAGE
I am not sure why 180 continues to behave in that way, if there is a real 'malice' behind his 'sarcasm' or not. — boundless

Oh, I do ignore his all too frequent "sarcastic" sneers for the most part. And I don't take his "malice" to heart. But on rare occasions, when he actually asks pertinent questions, I can't help teasing him a bit. He seems to have made it his Socratic gad-fly mission to ridicule my Enformationism thesis. But I don't really know what in particular ticks him off. He makes no attempt to explain his antagonism.

Our little running duel goes back several years, to my first posts on this forum. I was new to philosophical discussion, and perhaps a bit too naive about how touchy some posters are for their personal "truth". He had characterized himself as a Spinozist, so I responded that my worldview was generally compatible with Spinoza's. But I also have a couple of centuries of science to accommodate in the details of my personal philosophical perspective.

He also describes himself as an Immanentist, so my notion that G*D must have existed before the Big Bang, and outside of our bubble of spacetime, must have sounded like a slap in the face. Ironically, there's nothing he could say about my own god-model that would offend me. It's just a metaphor for the timeless Source or Whole of which our space-time world may be just a temporary blip. It's hard to get a fix on exactly what his general worldview is : Atheist, Materialist, etc.

If 180 would actually engage in a dialog, perhaps I could learn where his sore spots are, so we could avoid touching where it hurts. But his early attempts at philosophical discussion consisted mostly of references to highly technical tomes by authors I'd never heard of, that were supposed to reveal the Truth that I was ignorant of. He didn't seem able to condense all that technical stuff down to a personal summary appropriate for a forum discussion. Besides, I have no formal training in philosophy, so most of his technicalities are over my head, and I need him to dumb it down for me.

I do appreciate that you are willing and able to dialog on topics where we may seem to disagree in details, without being disagreeable. This forum is my retirement hobby. So I'd like to keep the discussion going in a positive direction.

[Gnomon]

As to "how", I must assume that the binding chains of natural Cause & Effect have some "gaps" or "loopholes" that can be exploited by Autonomous Agents — Gnomon
Ok. But how these 'gaps' arise in a pantheistic/panentheistic/pandeistic/panendeistic system? — boundless

Ha! You'll have to ask the Deus why He/r system of Cause & Effect is not strictly dictatorial & deterministic, but statistical, and frivolously creating novel arrangements of matter & energy as a basement hobby. Apparently you think the Deity is incapable of internal change, or oblivious to the little independent-minded creatures running around inside the Whole. Either our evolving world is accidental or intentional, or Deus is just having a bad dream.

All I can do is guess : that the evolutionary system was intentionally designed to produce living & thinking creatures, with abilities that allow for some self-determination. Or, that our universe is a divine experiment gone disastrously awry. Why would an eternal/infinite/omnipotent Being have unruly pockets of space-time scrambling around in He/r bosom? Why would an absolute Entity allow little bubbles of evolving matter to grow inside He/r womb? How could Omniscience/Omnipotence have statistical "gaps", unless they were designed to provide opportunities for creativity?

During my fleeting time here in sub specie aeternitatis, I could try to speculate about timelessness and thinglessness. But I can't imagine such non-sense, except by means of analogies & metaphors drawn from personal experience, and the imaginings of other matter-bound speculators. Perhaps, ↪180 Proof
, as an authority on Spinozism, can provide a definitive answer to your question.

Speaking of speculation, Einstein's Relativity gives us one way to construct analogies of the Whole vs Part perspectives. My sensation of autonomous & independent action in space-time might appear to be static & dependent to Enfernal (infinite/eternal) Being.


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[Gnomon]

Well, I wasn't talking about my ideas on the matter. But anyway, the 'standard' philosophical position about God (even for the classical theists) is that God is simple, unchanging and transcends time. Spinoza accepted this kind of view. If you say that 'Deus' changes, then yeah I think that my objections do not apply strictly speaking. Still, by 'statistical' you don't mean 'probabilistic'. Probabilism is just as incompatible as determinism to free will/agency (choices are not random). — boundless

The definition of God as "simple & unchanging" may or may not be true ; but it's irrelevant to you & me. I have no way of verifying that "standard position". But, in the evolving space-time world, where you and I are operating, Complexity and Change are the context from which we vainly try to imagine a First Cause capable of producing an evolving world. Presumably, enfernal G*D does not evolve, but He/r space-time creation may be a machine for evolving little gods.

I disagree about the relevance of Probability to Free Will*1. Calvinistic Classical Physics assumed that the fate of the world is pre-determined by the absolute Will of God. But Quantum Physics has undermined the philosophical certainty of that presumption. According to 21st century science, the physical foundation of reality is Relative, not absolute, and Uncertain, not pre-destined, and Organic, not Mechanistic. The Probability "gap" in quantum physics is anywhere a mind makes a measurement. No minds : no gaps in Determinism.

So, either G*D screwed-up and left some accidental statistical gaps in the mechanism of Fatalism. Or Sh/e programmed our little bubble of space-time with teleological options that allow some brainy organisms to choose from the Possibility menu as it suits their own purposes. The link below points out that Determinism is a debatable guess about ultimate reality, while indeterminate statistical Probability is as close to certain knowledge as human science can get*2.



*1. Is FreeWill Fake Agency? :
After those scenic side-tracks, he finally gets around to “unpacking free will”. For his analysis, you can read the article. Here, I’ll only mention a couple of points. 1) “Trying to account for choice at the level of neurons . . . wouldn’t provide any causal account”. That would be like looking for Meaning in the circuits of a motherboard. 2) “Voluntary behavior . . . Is an emergent phenomenon at the level of the entire organism embedded in physical reality”. That’s what I call “Holism”, or “Systems Theory”. Finally, he looks at “Freewill as Phenomenal Experience”, and says “Although this naïve view has largely been abandoned by serious thinkers, it can still be useful : what difference does it make if you believe that free will is an illusion? Would you no longer make any choices at all?”. In his considered opinion, “free will is a puzzle but it is not an illusion”. To that, I say “amen”.
https://bothandblog7.enformationism.info/page26.html

*2. Probability vs Determinism :
Determinism coexists as easily with probability as it does with ignorance. This is because determinism is an ontological* matter while probability is an epistemological one.
https://www.quora.com/If-determinism-is ... lity-exist

[Gnomon]

I think that the argument goes like: if God weren't simple, i.e. it God was composed of parts (which themsleves are entities) then it could not be eternal, or at least God would be contingent. God would be ontologically dependent on its parts.
In other words, God's ontological necessity and eternity requires an ontological simplicity.
Anyway, maybe you could say that some aspects of God/Whole evolve and some aspects do not, in order to accept both a panendeistic world view and God's eternity and necessity. But I am not sure if this helps. — boundless

I don't agree with that arbitrary conditional hypothetical if-then scenario. It seems to be placing restrictions on what an omnipotent deity can or cannot do*1. If there are no parts or aspects, then what is G*D*2 the Whole of? That negative definition of Perfection seems to be a bunch of nothing : no boundaries, no parts, no change. no properties, no place for an evolving world with imperfect creatures. Nothing to do : Eternally Boring.

The idealistic concept of a perfect deity --- who is also good, merciful, and loving? --- is a nice neat geometric notion, with no content : an ideal empty sphere that is infinite & unbounded. And it leaves open the question of how such timeless perfection could possibly create a space-time world where good & evil are in constant combat. To maintain their ideal geometric deity definition, the philosophical argument of Theodicy was forced to blame the creatures (victims of evil) instead of the Creator of the Cosmic System. Which is also how monotheistic Judaism was transformed into polytheistic Christianity. Henceforth, theology had to reconcile the existence of dueling dual (or Trinity) gods, forever fighting over the fate of the creation.

I can't make sense of either argument, A> Monotheism :God is a perfect faultless Whole, and He/r relationship to the imperfect faulty Parts is all top-down. Hence God's perfection is uncontaminated by the limitations of space-time and good/evil. B> Polytheism : God is all good, but He/r evil twin is competing for the crown of world ruler. And spoiling the ideal simplicity of indivisible Oneness. Therefore, I can't accept the notion of G*D as Necessity without Possibilty.

On the other hand, I can only guess that G*D is not frozen into a boundless timeless changeless blocktime popsicle, but is instead a dynamic entity capable of creating an imperfect world internally without compromising He/r own boundlessness or wholeness. Just as a human mind can imagine a Utopian or Dystopian world without reducing its own unity & wholeness, a G*D-mind could move imaginary chess pieces around without compromising its own integrity. As some have expressed the idea : G*D is dreaming our world, so our "real" existence is imaginary or fictional from the perspective of the dreamer.

*1. How can you define Infinity or limit Eternity? :
Einstein liked inventing phrases such as "God does not play dice," "The Lord is subtle but not malicious." On one occasion Bohr answered, "Einstein, stop telling God what to do."
https://history.aip.org/exhibits/einstein/ae63.htm

*2. G*D :
An ambiguous spelling of the common name for a supernatural deity. The Enformationism thesis is based upon an unprovable axiom that our world is an idea in the mind of G*D. This eternal deity is not imagined in a physical human body, but in a meta-physical mathematical form, equivalent to Logos. Other names : ALL, BEING, Creator, Enformer, MIND, Nature, Reason, Source, Programmer. The eternal Whole of which all temporal things are a part is not to be feared or worshipped, but appreciated like Nature.
I refer to the logically necessary and philosophically essential First & Final Cause as G*D, rather than merely "X" the Unknown, partly out of respect. That’s because the ancients were not stupid, to infer purposeful agencies, but merely shooting in the dark. We now understand the "How" of Nature much better, but not the "Why". That inscrutable agent of Entention is what I mean by G*D.
https://blog-glossary.enformationism.info/page13.html