BothAndBlog Forum

Entropy, expanding space, Noether's theorem, and conservation of free energy


By our current best understanding of physics, the universe as a whole is not a closed system, because there's new energy being created everywhere all the time by the expansion of space. . . . what the corresponding symmetry to conservation of free energy would be. — Pfhorrest

Not necessarily new. I'm not a physicist, but I am interested in the symmetry between Energy & Entropy. Apparently, the universe began with all the energy it would ever have. But energy is a shape-shifter, in that it is constantly changing form, from potential to kinetic, from energy to mass, and back again. The traditional list of energy forms -- chemical, electrical, radiant, mechanical, thermal and nuclear -- may need to be updated to accommodate "Dark Energy" and "Dark Matter". But the general rule seems to be : "conserve energy, because it doesn't grow on trees". Therefore, despite speculations about "continuous creation", or "exchanging energy between mini-verses in a multiverse", our world still remains a closed system. But it's a dynamic system, and a cybernetic system. So, it's a slippery bar of soap, for physicists to pin down.


What is the source of energy that is accelerating space? :
No new energy is created, it is potential energy converted into kinetic energy. ... The expansion is accelerating constantly, so that would seem to require a constant addition of energy. But if our universe is self contained, there is no external source of energy to create a force to accelerate space. . . .

There is no force or energy involved in the expansion of space. It is merely a natural result of the General Theory of Relativity.
https://www.researchgate.net/post/What- ... ting-space

Enformy :
In the Enformationism theory, Enformy is a hypothetical, holistic, metaphysical, natural trend or force, that counteracts Entropy & Randomness to produce complexity & progress.
http://blog-glossary.enformationism.info/page8.html
Note -- (amateur guess) apparently, Enformy is symmetrical, in that it maintains a dynamic balance between Potential (stored) and Actual (kinetic) Energy, by cycling through various physical forms. As space expands, its potential energy is converted into kinetic or inertial energy. But the total (whole) energy content of the Cosmos remains the same as in the beginning, when it went Bang!.

As though the conserved quantity is not just energy per se, but free energy: so as some energy becomes unfree as entropy increases, there's a commensurate creation of new free energy to keep the total free energy constant, which new energy is added everywhere equally, manifesting as an expansion of space. — Pfhorrest

Again, I'm not qualified to comment on the mathematical or physical aspects of your proposed symmetrical relationship between Space & Time, or between Free Energy & Spatial Expansion. But, I am interested in the Philosophical and Cosmological implications of the proportional relationship between Energy and Entropy.

Noether's Theorem seems to be a special case of Maupertuis' Principle of Least Action. Which has been metaphorized as "The Lazy Universe Principle". But I would prefer to call it the "Conservative" or "Frugal Universe" principle. That is how I interpret the First Law. It's like Fossil Fuels : petroleum is not a renewable resource, so it must be used sparingly and recycled when possible. "A penny saved is a penny earned".

In this case, "Free Energy" is not free; it comes with a cost : Entropy (unavailable energy). So, the source of energy for the expansion of space is not a freebie. Therefore, the moral of this story is that Energy and Space-Time are finite --- hence, the expansion cannot go-on forever.

Maupertuis's principle :
It is a special case of the more generally stated principle of least action.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maupertuis%27s_principle

The Lazy Universe :
https://aapt.scitation.org/doi/10.1119/1.5024210

Thermodynamic free energy :
Since free energy usually contains potential energy, it is not absolute but depends on the choice of a zero point. Therefore, only relative free energy values, or changes in free energy, are physically meaningful.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermodynamic_free_energy

The first law of thermodynamics states that energy can neither be created nor destroyed, only altered in form.

I don't see how you're getting that claim. I am both talking about the Principle of Least Action, and also talking about Noether's Theorem, but I don't see why you'd say one is a special case of the other. — Pfhorrest

It wasn't exactly a "claim", but just an observation. I don't know much about either theory. But after reading descriptions, the "principle" seemed to be more general in application than the "theorem". In any case, I concluded that the PLA would have the opposite effect from "efficiently" Increasing Entropy. Instead, it would tend to conserve available Energy, acting as a brake on the dissipating effects of energy decay -- the end result of which is the projected Heat Death of the universe.

A more positive outlook is important to my philosophical worldview, including the hypothesis of Enformy (negentropy), which works in opposition to deconstructing & digressing Entropy. I had coined the term "enformy" before I had heard of "negentropy". And one reason that awkward word is not better known, may be that some misanthropic physicists appear to be less interested in positive evolution, than in the scary negative impact of the motor of the world running down, leaving us stranded in a bleak future, with nowhere to go.


Enformy :
In the Enformationism theory, Enformy is a hypothetical, holistic, metaphysical, natural trend or force, that counteracts Entropy & Randomness to produce complexity & progress.
http://blog-glossary.enformationism.info/page8.html

Negentropy is reverse entropy. It means things becoming more in order. By 'order' is meant organisation, structure and function: the opposite of randomness or chaos. One example of negentropy is a star system such as the Solar System. ... The opposite of entropy is negentropy.
https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negentropy

So, could perhaps the second law of thermodynamics itself therefore be responsible for the creation of new energy via the expansion of space, which in turn undermines the effects of the second law on the universe as a whole? — Pfhorrest

I just came across the term "phantom energy" which seems to be what you are talking about. If such inflationary energy actually existed, it would result in a sudden "Big Rip", which sounds more dramatic (and unpleasant) than the current projection of a "Big Sigh" during the prolonged "heat death" of the universe. This reminds me of Woody Allen's quip : "I'm not afraid of death, I just don't want to be there when it happens". :joke:

Expanding Space -- Negative Gravity :
However… it is possible that our universe contains what is known as “phantom energy” in the literature. A universe with phantom energy is unstable, because the density of phantom energy is increasing when the universe expands, but just like dark energy, phantom energy accelerates expansion. But in this case, it becomes a runaway process, known as the “Big Rip”.
https://www.quora.com/What-if-space-exp ... srid=ozk3M

Phantom Energy :
Phantom energy is a hypothetical form of dark energy satisfying the equation of state with w < − 1 {\displaystyle w<-1} w<-1. It possesses negative kinetic energy, and predicts expansion of the universe in excess of that predicted by a cosmological constant, which leads to a Big Rip. The idea of phantom energy is often dismissed, as it would suggest that the vacuum is unstable with negative mass particles bursting into existence. The concept is hence tied to emerging theories of a continuously-created negative mass dark fluid, in which the cosmological constant can vary as a function of time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantom_energy

Big Rip :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Rip

BIG BANG TO BIG RIP

And so a universe that began as literally just an empty set, a zero, one black pixel, evolved more dimensions, larger dimensions, and more and more complex structure, because that became the best way of increasing entropy. — Pfhorrest

My personal cosmology is just the opposite of maximizing Entropy. Instead, the universe seems to be gradually maximizing order and organization. But, since we are currently at the You Are Here mid-point (in the graphic of my last post about the Big Rip), the amount of order right now is roughly equal to the amount of disorder.

However, if the "black pixel" was programmed to evolve in a positive (relative to humans) manner. That would imply that the original "set" (Singularity) was not "empty", but bursting full of Potential. If so, Evolution could be interpreted as the gradual actualization of that latent constructive Energy. Perhaps the destiny of this experiment in evolution would be something like a second Singularity -- as envisioned by Ray Kurzweil, or by Teilhard deChardin.

Instead, the universe seems to be gradually maximizing order and organization. — Gnomon

This makes no sense; in fact, it's contradictory. According to thermodynamics: order is DISorganization ... DISorder is organization. — 180 Proof

I understand that you don't agree with my holistic & positive assessment of the direction of evolution. But how did you come-up with that Big Brother oxymoronic assertion? I assume you are thinking of Entropy as merely a mathematical description of the energy availability in a system. How can you equate "order" with "disorganization"? Is that how the world looks from a reductionist perspective?

In a non-mathematical sense (common sense), meaningful synonyms of Entropy are "disorder" and "disorganization". And in the context of describing the universe as an evolving system, dis-organization is the measurable effect of Entropy. A randomized system is not a system, because it lacks the patterns of organization that constitute a system. Entropy breaks down the order and organization of a functional system. That's why Claude Shannon defined "Information" in terms of Order (certainty ; meaning) versus Entropy (uncertainty ; meaningless).

Entropy as Disorder: History of a Misconception :
The claim “entropy is analogous to disorder” fails for one additional reason: the word “disorder” is hopelessly vague. Entropy is a precise, measurable quantity.
https://aapt.scitation.org/doi/10.1119/1.5126822

Entropy :
1. a thermodynamic quantity representing the unavailability of a system's thermal energy for conversion into mechanical work, often interpreted as the degree of disorder or randomness in the system.
"the second law of thermodynamics says that entropy always increases with time"
2. lack of order or predictability; gradual decline into disorder.
___Oxford dictionary

Entropy :
In thermodynamics, entropy is often associated with the amount of order or disorder in a thermodynamic system.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy_( ... _disorder)

Systems Theory :
Some may view the contradiction of reductionism in conventional theory (which has as its subject a single part) as simply an example of changing assumptions. The emphasis with systems theory shifts from parts to the organization of parts, recognizing interactions of the parts as not static and constant but dynamic processes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systems_theory

Universe is an organized System :
A system is an entity with interrelated and interdependent parts; it is defined by its boundaries and is more than the sum of its parts (subsystem).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systems_theory

Evolution, the argument goes, is a decrease of entropy, because it involves things getting more organized over time, while the second law says that things get more disordered over time. So evolution violates the second law. ...
http://physics.gmu.edu/~roerter/EvolutionEntropy.htm


“War is peace.
Freedom is slavery.
Ignorance is strength.”
― George Orwell, 1984

Nope, just dark energy. Phantom energy is something on top of that, that may or may not exist. Dark energy definitely does. — Pfhorrest

Oh! I thought you were proposing some novel form of energy.

Just look in the mirror at the increasing disorder that's organizing you, Gnomon! From what you've written, it appears you profoundly misunderstand (or "metaphysically" deny) entropy. And btw, I'm not a "reductionist". — 180 Proof

Again, you seem to be talking nonsense : "disorder that organizes". That paradoxical notion goes right over my pointy little head. It sounds like the "emptiness of space that is full of energy" in the quote below.

Can you explain "disorder that organizes" in dumbed-down terms for a simpleton like me. I'm sure you know more about such things that I do. However, since I'm neither a physicist nor a mathematician, I am not interested in the narrow technical details of Energy/Entropy. My concern is only in the broad general philosophical implications of such abstruse topics. If I really had a use for the arcane details, I would ask you to teach me.

But I can be satisfied with illustrative metaphors, such as "Entropy is the flip-side of Energy". And although they are discussed as-if they are physical substances, they are more akin to spiritual substances like ectoplasm. In that case, "Entropy is like the ghost of Energy past". Neither is a material substance, but merely a condition, a state -- like before and after. That's why mystified scientists use poetic terms like "Dark Energy" and "Dark Matter" and "Dynamic Fluid" as placeholders for real understanding.

Perhaps you are actually being poetic, and ironic, when you speak of "disorder that organizes". Are you just pulling my leg? Are you actually a holist, pretending to be a reductionist? Are you metaphysically equating destructive Entropy with constructive Energy to emphasize the paradox of all change : Life is merely the process of approaching Death. :joke:

Dark Energy, Dark Matter :
"empty space" can possess its own energy. Because this energy is a property of space itself, it would not be diluted as space expands. . . .
The thing that is needed to decide between dark energy possibilities - a property of space, a new dynamic fluid, or a new theory of gravity - is more data, better data.
https://science.nasa.gov/astrophysics/f ... ark-energy

“Exergy balance equation” :
There is a direct connection between exergy destruction, entropy generation, and the reference temperature of environment, namely Exd=T0ΔSgen
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/en ... e-equation
Note -- the poetic expression of Entropy as-if it is generated as a positive product of expending available Energy (exergy), rather than another step on the slippery slope that leads to the Heat Death of the universe. .

Energy is the potential for positive change (work, construction, organization)
Entropy is the result of negative change (dissipation, destruction, disorganization)