What would you consider a good counter-argument to the assertion (that I've heard variations of from both theists and atheists), that the deistic concept of God renders belief in God pointless?
https://www.quora.com/What-would-you-co ... -pointless
What's the point of believing in an invisible non-intervening deity? This Deist has lost faith in conflicting scriptural stories of a heavenly hereafter, but still can't shake the feeling that the world is heading toward some inevitable Omega Point. All physical evidence points to the conclusion that Evolution is progressive, climbing from dead dust to Life to Mind and beyond. So the intuition of Entention as the cause of this creative process may be the Deist's feeble Faith that overcomes Atheistic doubt. The point, the motivation, is to climb on the Evolutionary Bus that's going on a great adventure. We leave the driving to our anonymous G*D, and enjoy the ride.
PS__Such intuitive faith doesn’t require that we sacrifice our mortal lives for the promise of immortality. It just motivates us to live our lives as-if there is a point to the whole exercise. Each individual is free to interpret the teleological trends of the universe as she wishes. It’s not a gamble, just a guess.
12/07/2018
Rex Newborn
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I would say that the Deists were atheistic agnostics who were attempting to remain within the Christian culture. Deist: Yes there is a god, but it doesn’t interact with humans, we just believe.”
Some early Deists did seem to hold onto their general cultural god-concept, even as they rejected the layers of dogma encrusting the direct relation between Creator and Creatures. But the modern Deist god-model has evolved as science has revealed more details about the physical universe, and how it evolves toward some future state (Omega Point?). So most current Deists stand with one foot in the historical traditions of Supernaturalism, and one in the modern science of Naturalism. This leaves them on the fuzzy fringe of Christian culture, connected only by their rejection of reductionist Atheism and acceptance of a holistic Creator.
A common Deist assertion is that G*D doesn’t “intervene” in ongoing evolutionary events. That's because the need for external control inputs (miracles) would imply that the Creation (Nature) lacks an internal control system, hence the Creator would be incompetent. Instead, the assumption is that the world is like an autonomous organism, growing and maturing in response to internal constraints and dynamics. Since humans are perceived to be organs within that organism, it’s not true that God doesn’t “interact” with them. Instead, G*D is viewed as the Whole of which humans are parts, which means that every action in the world is an interaction with the CEO -- who hasn't retired, but is still fully invested in the system.
Ultimately, the Deist worldview is based on an act of Inference & Intuition : the world is teleological, hence there must be an
Ententional First Cause. I wouldn't call that "Faith" because of the common implication of blind obedience to a culture-bound book or an all-too-human prophet. Instead, Deism relies on the only "Word" of G*D that we can know directly, by simple experience of a living thinking world. From that personal experience we infer a living thinking Creator, and we intuit a First Cause of all causes & effects in the world system. The irrational alternative would be to "believe" that Life & Mind magically popped into existence by some form of Spontaneous Generation. That’s a distinction that makes a difference in how we live.
Deists don't have a bible or a Pope, we simply read the World, and bow to Reason. We agree with Science on How the world works, with Religion on Why it works as-if driven by
Entention, and with Philosophy on the need to question everything, and define terms.
Note : by "we", I mean "me".
Entention :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entention
12/07/2108
John Earwood
“
We leave the driving to our anonymous G*D, and enjoy the ride.”
Deism may actually be more pointed than Atheism, in that it "sees" signs of general direction & purpose in the world, and attempts to align with it like a compass to the magnetic field. Theism also senses the directional flow of the world, but tends to get stuck pointing in one direction as the field curves around them. Atheism, with its focus on particulars, misses the general significance of those details, and points erratically at every variation in the field instead of the general direction of North, of Truth. The evidence is in the pattern, not the iron. The study of G*D might be called Cosmic Cybernetics.
G*D is not a thing to be studied under a microscope, but the purpose, power, function, direction of things. Deists feel the power by intuition, and understand it by reason. The Point & Purpose of the world is not in its matter, but in its movement. Atheists see the iron filings, but miss the invisible flux (Absence) that directs them. Theists worship the fount of the flux instead of merely flowing with it. The point of Deism is not to worship, or to rule, but to go with the flow. G*D surfing.
We mold clay into a pot,
but it is the emptiness inside
that makes the vessel useful.
— Laozi, Tao Te Ching
Absential : "a purpose not yet actualized"
http://absence.github.io/3-explanations ... ntial.html
PS__I made up the "Cosmic Cybernetics" term as I was writing the post above. But a quick internet search finds that the term was already in use by an Astrology site. I don't buy into the mystical aspects of astrology, but I agree with the concept that the universe is a self-controlled system with teleological implications. Anyway there is another site with a more scientific take on the concept :
http://ezinearticles.com/?COSMIC-CYBERN ... id=8517884
12/10/2018
Dora Simunovic
“
If your god enriches your life and the lives of those around you; inspires love, forgiveness, generosity, peace, patience; helps you through tough times and encourages you to try again; leads you to new and original insights into your decisions and obsessions - believe all you want and however you want. Pointless or not makes no difference.”
The Deist concept of G*D can indeed enrich the lives of those who believe that there is more to this world than meets the eye. However, Deists are basically Atheists with a Holistic, rather than Reductionistic, perspective on the world. This “greater than the sum of the parts” understanding places the Point of life in a wider frame of reference. Hence, the Point of Deism is out-there, as an aspiration, rather than in-here, as selfish motivation. Whether that aspirational Point makes any difference is up to the individual.
Deism is an individual philosophy, not a collective religion. We are free to conceptualize that attractive "force" as we see fit, without having to worry about doctrines or hell-fire. Deism places the individual into a larger context than even sectarian churches, or political denominations. You might say that Deism is Atheism in a Cosmic Context.
PS__By "Deism", I mean the modern worldview (NeoDeism) that is enformed by current scientific knowledge, without being forced to conform to the Atheistic prejudice that "Man is the measure of all things", and that Matter is the substance of meaning.
PPS__Most Deists are intuitive feelers of the gravitational field of G*D, not rational academic apologists for the Deist worldview. Hence the perceived need for exploring the topical question of this thread.
12/11/2018
Dora Simunovic
I find your perspective interesting and compelling, and probably the best explanation of NeoDeism I have ever had the opportunity to read.
I would just ad that, as far as I know, nobody forces me as an atheist to conform to anything, and I certainly do not think that man is the measure of all things, or that matter is the substance of meaning.
Is atheism reductionist, though? Yes, almost by definition. Your expression of deism as holistic really struck a chord with me, in that I think I now better understand the appeal of your position.
I think our two perspectives are very compatible, which is not the case between either of them and a fundamentalist religious position (the only real “enemy” in my opinion), but as I said - whatever floats your boat, as long as it does not navigate our social policy.
12/13/2108
reply to Dora
“
Is atheism reductionist, though? Yes, almost by definition.”
Deism is compatible with reductionistic Science, as the primary source of knowledge about Nature. But it also looks to Metaphysics for wisdom about the “Big Picture” that extends beyond the self-imposed limits of Physics. Holistic Philosophy is not bound by the space-time boundary of Science. So it can speculate about such topics as “what caused the Big Bang?” The logical necessity for an ultimate Cause is without doubt. But Materialists tend to envision it as physical (Multiverse), while Deists typically think of it as metaphysical (Mental), hence explaining the mystery of Life & Mind emerging from Matter & Energy. That pre-bang Cause is what we call G*D, which for lack of data, we leave un-analyzed.
Such extended reasoning does not produce hard empirical facts, but it can contribute to a general Theory of why the world behaves as it does, and where is our place in it. With that information on origins, we can better navigate toward a personal destination of our own choosing. Nobody can force you to conform to my Path, but it would be smart to follow the path of Nature. And Nature is both Physical and Metaphysical.
“
there is an inherent need for humans to conceptually grasp the big picture and this is where metaphysics finds its true value”
Dave Davidson,
http://Davidsonhttps://www.quora.com/Wh ... etaphysics
12/14/2018
reply to Dora
“
a non-empirical theory is not a theory, except colloquially.”
My use of the term “theory” is compatible with at least one non-colloquial definition*. Like Darwin’s partly empirical “theory” of evolution, it’s not a shot-in-the-dark hypothesis, but an interconnected system of ideas intended to explain a mystery based on reasonable general principles. Since I am not inspired by the usual religious motives, there is a “need for it to be scientific”.
As I noted before, most Deists don’t have a “theory” of deity at all, but merely an intuitive notion that there must be some hidden unifying principle or force behind the empirical observations of nature’s objects and behaviors. That’s a start, but I am not satisfied with hunches and fantasies. So I am in the process of developing a systematic worldview (based on a theory) to explain the mysteries overlooked or ignored by modern Science**. I call my philosophical worldview “Enformationism”, because it’s based on the dual role of Information in the world : as both Data and Meaning.
I won’t go into more detail here. But have concluded that a Metaphysical First Cause is the missing piece of the puzzle that Science has been putting together for the last few centuries. Quantum Theory has identified a huge gap in our mechanistic model of Nature, that can be filled, not with Matter or Energy, but with Information.
*Theory :
a supposition or a system of ideas intended to explain something, especially one based on general principles independent of the thing to be explained.
**Terrance Deacon is an atheist, but his book INCOMPLETE NATURE, is an excellent study of the mystery that Darwin swept under the rug : the Origin of Life & Mind. My personal worldview merely goes one step further into the question of origins : The Ghost in the Organism,
http://bothandblog3.enformationism.info/page20.html
12/12/2018
Steve Lewis
“
…belief in God versus worshiping God, are two different things.” ___Chris Finch
Yes. The point of Deism is not to *earn reward points* from the goodie-god. It is instead to point ourselves in the direction in which the world is evolving; to align my personal aim with the apparent aim of the “higher power” who set the world on its current course.
Some Deists still feel entitled to an afterlife of *bonus points* for enduring the suffering of this life. They are entitled to their opinion, but they don’t have any good reason to expect such a reversal of G*D’s revealed Will in the book of Nature.
Those worshipping Deists probably inherited the posture of kowtowing to the “magic dude in the sky” from their slavish religious forebears. But philosophical Deists are not afraid of their Creator. Instead of groveling & praying, they proudly assume the posture of partners in the project of progressive evolution.
Does everything really happen according to God's plan? Is God actually in control of everything, and all is according to His will?