TPF : Quantum Measurement
Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2022 5:23 pm
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussi ... de-history
Quantum measurement precede history?
I'm trying to unpack this statement. Could this be related to the Wikipedia entry where it says that "a photon in flight is interpreted as...something that has the potentiality to manifest as a particle or wave, but during its time in flight is neither." So upon flight the photon has a potential state but upon 'decoding' we deduce a history to say that it held an actual state (of a particle or a wave)? If so, the deduction of history follows the measurement, which is what I'm positing.
I don't think my current understanding assumes retrocausality since I'm not claiming that any information is being sent back in time. — keystone
I find that the terms "potential" and "actual" make more sense to me, as a layman, than "superposition" and "collapse". From that perspective, an unmeasured (undefined) Photon does not exist as a particle, but only a propagating "wave" of Possibility in an oceanic (holistic ; entangled) system of Potential Energy. When traveling at light-speed, It has no mass (matter) because it's not yet "manifest" as an individual "thing". Only when something slows down the quantum wave, by interference from the classical (macro) environment, does the wave begin to show specific properties, such as heat & mass.
The "interference" is like a pier post in the water (or a slit in a barrier) , it disturbs the incoming general (holistic) waveform, forcing it to take-on a specific (particular) form (i.e. disentanglement). In Beyond Weird, by Phillip Ball, he says, "we destroy the quantumness [entangled potential state] in proportion to the amount of information [energy] we import from the system [undefined state] into the environment [actual matter]". [my brackets]. When a massless photon smacks into a hunk of enformed matter, it transforms potential Energy into actual Force, causing changes in its structure.
Ball goes on to say that "the more information the environment 'absorbs' about a dust grain in superposition of position states, the more the grain becomes localized". Hence, Potential is non-local, and Actual is localized. In visual terms, the "grain" becomes less entangled in the oceanic system, and stands-out from the background as an individual object. However, we "deduce" that the particle was there all along, even before it became visible. You could say that it was there "in principle" (ideally ; theoretically) but not actually, until an observation reveals its location. This is the counter-intuitive Observer Effect, that Einstein questioned, by asking if the moon is still there even when no-one is looking at it.
You know the moon, or particle is there now, during the observation, but where was it in the past, unobserved? And what is the temporal relation between Actual "Now" and Potential "Then" ( a future state)? From a classical viewpoint, it's an apparent paradox. But in terms of abstract principles (potential & actual) it makes sense. That may be why Einstein proposed the counter-intuitive notion of Block-Time, in which all temporal states exist simultaneously in a static timeless eternity. Hence, "retro-causality" is not Actual, but merely Ideal (a mental image).
So, it's all relative. From one point-of-view, "history follows the measurement", as meaning follows a query. But from another angle, the pre-measured object was there all the time; you just didn't know it. The Greek root (metr- to measure) meant to extract information into a mind (L. mensura- to measure, from mens- mind or intention). In Quantum Theory, to extract information is equivalent to removing some matter/energy stuff from the thing observed (to abstract). Yet like pressing a rock into clay, the concave impression is not the thing, but it contains information about the thing. Ball calls that extracted information an "imprint" or a "replica". But that abstract knowledge is not the ding an sich.
PS__My conclusion is that "reality" is both Potential and Actual. But we only know the actual stuff by means of our physical senses. The Potential stuff is only known by Reasoning backward from Actual Effects to Potential Causes. The relationship is similar to Plato's Ideal (mental) Form and Real (physical) things.
The theory of Forms or theory of Ideas is a philosophical theory, concept, or world-view, attributed to Plato, that the physical world is not as real or true as timeless, absolute, unchangeable ideas. ___Wikipedia
PPS__The Observer's Choice "frames" reality as a personal interpretation of what's out there.
Einstein once said: “Reality is an illusion, albeit a persistent one ”. So, what we think of as reality is, in fact, just a local-personal-relative interpretation of it. In society, and in science, we share our particular frames in order to create a general conventional view of the world.
Quantum measurement precede history?
I'm trying to unpack this statement. Could this be related to the Wikipedia entry where it says that "a photon in flight is interpreted as...something that has the potentiality to manifest as a particle or wave, but during its time in flight is neither." So upon flight the photon has a potential state but upon 'decoding' we deduce a history to say that it held an actual state (of a particle or a wave)? If so, the deduction of history follows the measurement, which is what I'm positing.
I don't think my current understanding assumes retrocausality since I'm not claiming that any information is being sent back in time. — keystone
I find that the terms "potential" and "actual" make more sense to me, as a layman, than "superposition" and "collapse". From that perspective, an unmeasured (undefined) Photon does not exist as a particle, but only a propagating "wave" of Possibility in an oceanic (holistic ; entangled) system of Potential Energy. When traveling at light-speed, It has no mass (matter) because it's not yet "manifest" as an individual "thing". Only when something slows down the quantum wave, by interference from the classical (macro) environment, does the wave begin to show specific properties, such as heat & mass.
The "interference" is like a pier post in the water (or a slit in a barrier) , it disturbs the incoming general (holistic) waveform, forcing it to take-on a specific (particular) form (i.e. disentanglement). In Beyond Weird, by Phillip Ball, he says, "we destroy the quantumness [entangled potential state] in proportion to the amount of information [energy] we import from the system [undefined state] into the environment [actual matter]". [my brackets]. When a massless photon smacks into a hunk of enformed matter, it transforms potential Energy into actual Force, causing changes in its structure.
Ball goes on to say that "the more information the environment 'absorbs' about a dust grain in superposition of position states, the more the grain becomes localized". Hence, Potential is non-local, and Actual is localized. In visual terms, the "grain" becomes less entangled in the oceanic system, and stands-out from the background as an individual object. However, we "deduce" that the particle was there all along, even before it became visible. You could say that it was there "in principle" (ideally ; theoretically) but not actually, until an observation reveals its location. This is the counter-intuitive Observer Effect, that Einstein questioned, by asking if the moon is still there even when no-one is looking at it.
You know the moon, or particle is there now, during the observation, but where was it in the past, unobserved? And what is the temporal relation between Actual "Now" and Potential "Then" ( a future state)? From a classical viewpoint, it's an apparent paradox. But in terms of abstract principles (potential & actual) it makes sense. That may be why Einstein proposed the counter-intuitive notion of Block-Time, in which all temporal states exist simultaneously in a static timeless eternity. Hence, "retro-causality" is not Actual, but merely Ideal (a mental image).
So, it's all relative. From one point-of-view, "history follows the measurement", as meaning follows a query. But from another angle, the pre-measured object was there all the time; you just didn't know it. The Greek root (metr- to measure) meant to extract information into a mind (L. mensura- to measure, from mens- mind or intention). In Quantum Theory, to extract information is equivalent to removing some matter/energy stuff from the thing observed (to abstract). Yet like pressing a rock into clay, the concave impression is not the thing, but it contains information about the thing. Ball calls that extracted information an "imprint" or a "replica". But that abstract knowledge is not the ding an sich.
PS__My conclusion is that "reality" is both Potential and Actual. But we only know the actual stuff by means of our physical senses. The Potential stuff is only known by Reasoning backward from Actual Effects to Potential Causes. The relationship is similar to Plato's Ideal (mental) Form and Real (physical) things.
The theory of Forms or theory of Ideas is a philosophical theory, concept, or world-view, attributed to Plato, that the physical world is not as real or true as timeless, absolute, unchangeable ideas. ___Wikipedia
PPS__The Observer's Choice "frames" reality as a personal interpretation of what's out there.
Einstein once said: “Reality is an illusion, albeit a persistent one ”. So, what we think of as reality is, in fact, just a local-personal-relative interpretation of it. In society, and in science, we share our particular frames in order to create a general conventional view of the world.