BothAndBlog Forum

https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussi ... rmation/p1

"Information, at least the information we might be familiar with in computers, certainly seems number-like."
____hypericin

At the time I had this epiphany, the insight arose, 'so this is why ancient philosophy held arithmetic in high esteem. It was certain, immutable and apodictic.' These are attributes of a higher cognitive functionality, namely rational insight. Of course, I was to discover that this is Platonism 101, and I'm still drawn to the Platonist view of the matter. The philosophical point about it is that through rational thought we have insight into a kind of transcendental realm. — Wayfarer

I'm not qualified to engage in this profound thread, but your "epiphany" suggested a relationship between Numbers and Information that is not covered by Shannon's engineering theory, yet may be implicit in Plato's broader philosophical worldview.

Shannon's digital Information is defined in terms of pragmatic, physical, immutable, apodictic distinctions. But Plato's ideal Numbers*1 were non-physical, non-sensible things in a realm beyond time and space (transcendent). Ironically, the latter may be more applicable to mundane human use of Information with analog values, personal meanings, and perhaps even fractal dimensions, that don't lend themselves to yes/no digitization.

Quantum Physics has analyzed reality down, not to atoms of value & meaning, but to oceans of value (the Quantum Field) that lie, not on a simplistic linear number line, but in a "transcendent" state-of-being where "real" particles of Matter are temporary, conditional, and statistically probable. Could Plato's ideal non-sensible mathematical realm correspond to that hypothetical abstract mathematical sphere-of-Influence that physicists call "the universal quantum field"*2?

In Plato's Cave allegory, material things in the sensible world are merely shadows of an illuminated-but-unreal domain. Likewise, our social meanings and linguistic information consist of imperfect analog values that are close enough to absolute True/False to be useful for communication. Not Identical, but relative.

Conservative Physicists probably don't think of the Quantum Field as "transcendent", so exploring that possibility is left to Liberal (new-agey ; mystical energy) Metaphysicians*3. Personally, I doubt that there are any practical real-world applications of transcendental preternatural information, such as access to "unlimited knowledge". But the theoretical philosophical implications of perfection may be of interest to those who like to reason beyond immanent Materialism and utilitarian Mechanism.


*1. Mathematical Platonism :
the doctrine that there exist abstract objects—objects that are wholly nonspatiotemporal, nonphysical, and nonmental . . . . based on the postulation of unchanging and eternal realities known as forms.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/mathematical-Platonism

*2. The Universal Field Theory is not a physics theory in a classical sense. It is rather a philosophical theory explaining Why and How physical phenomena appear.
https://theuniversalfieldtheory.com/

*3. What is Quantum Transcendence? :
I just googled QT and got this hit.
https://www.1to1coachingschool.com/QEC_ ... aching.htm

While personal meanings are not in themselves information, but rather frameworks of interpretation. I think the conflation of information and interpretation is one of the main confusions of this topic. — hypericin

Shannon took an ancient term referring generally & loosely to meaning in a mind*1 --- or as you noted, "frameworks for interpretation --- and adapted it for use in mindless computers*2. To that end, he ignored the inconsistent variable analog concrete semantic forms of Information, and focused on the consistent absolute digital abstract mathematical (either/or ratios) that could be exactly defined as something or nothing (1 or 0).

Human meanings are subject to vague personal interpretation and mis-interpretation, while computer bits & bytes are impersonal & precise. However, those numerical values can later be translated back into human (natural language*3) meanings, but at the risk of mis-interpretation. Anything that can cause an information processor (computer or brain) to create meaningful internal Forms (images ; configurations) is a source of Information.


*1. Information :
Knowledge and the ability to know. Technically, it's the ratio of order to disorder, of positive to negative, of knowledge to ignorance. It's measured in degrees of uncertainty. Those ratios are also called "differences". So Gregory Bateson defined Information as "the difference that makes a difference". The latter distinction refers to "value" or "meaning". Babbage called his prototype computer a "difference engine". Difference is the cause or agent of Change. In Physics it’s called "Thermodynamics" or "Energy". In Sociology it’s called "Conflict".
https://blog-glossary.enformationism.info/page11.html

*2. Information is an abstract concept that refers to something which has the power to inform. At the most fundamental level, it pertains to the interpretation of that which may be sensed, or their abstractions. . . . Information is not knowledge itself, but the meaning that may be derived from a representation through interpretation ____Wikipedia

*3. Natural Language :
a language that has developed naturally in use (as contrasted with an artificial language or computer code). ____ Oxford Languages

To that end, he [Shannon] ignored the inconsistent variable analog . . . concrete semantic forms of Information. (bolded words were omitted in your misinterpretation)

Gnonsense. Shannon worked on analog computers before essentially inventing digital logic. His communication theory was very much about communicating uncorrupted digital data through the noisy analog world. So no, he didn't ignore the analog.
What is with your obsessive need to propagate misinformation? — wonderer1

Please note that I wasn't talking about analog Computers (continuous vs digital values), but analog Information*1 (semantic meaning expressed by figurative analogies). Shannon found a way to reduce the Uncertainty of "noisy" Analog Computers, including human brains*2, by using Digital Information in which the Natural Language meaning is converted into synthetic Mathematical symbols. In that process, the real world meanings (analogies ; metaphors ; similes ; nuances) are ignored in favor of abstract numerical values, and must be reconstructed later, opening the possibility of misconstrual.

Ironically, cutting edge computers are now learning to communicate with human programmers in natural language instead of artificial codes*3. How do you think the programmers will deal with the inherent Uncertainties of human language? Your misinterpretation of my human language post is a prime example of self-misinformation.

*1. Analog Information :
information processing called analog-form information, or simply analog information. Until the development of the digital computer, cognitive information was stored and processed only in analog form, basically through the technologies of printing, photography, and telephony.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/analog-information

*2. Analog Brain
The mammalian brain, comprised of neuronal networks, functions as an analog device and has given rise to artificial neural networks that are implemented as digital algorithms but function as analog models would.
https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/ec ... 96413/full

*3. Why Natural Language is the New Language of the Digital Era
The days of writing lines of code to achieve tasks are gradually giving way to the era of conversation. Natural language processing (NLP) and machine learning have reached a point where machines can not only understand what we say but also grasp the context and nuances of our conversations.
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/why-natu ... nuya-kamat