BothAndBlog Forum

The 'hard problem of consciousness'
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussi ... ousness/p2

In the following, I will explain that both the question of the hard problem and the answers often given to it are based on two, if not three, decisive errors in reasoning. ___ Wolfgang

1. The first error in thinking: The confusion of levels of description
2. The Second Error in Thinking: The Confusion of Perspectives
3. The Third Error in Thinking: The Tautological Question

levels of description
Up to this point, nothing immaterial has happened. We operate exclusively in the field of physics and physiology. . . . . In truth, it is not a causal relationship, but a correlation between two different levels of description of the same phenomenon — Wolfgang

Thanks for the novel approach to the categorical conundrum : Hard (theoretical ; philosophical) Problem as compared to the Easier (empirical ; scientific) Problem.

All causation is a correlation between Cause & Effect. But some (snapshot) relationships are static and statistical, with no change in (physical) state. A state change requires energy, and a source. The difference between physiology and psychology is A> state change (physical energy) and B> categorical shift (mental information).
"Correlation is a statistical measure that shows the relationship between two or more variables, while causation means that one event is the result of another. Correlation does not automatically imply causation, and causation always implies correlation." ___ Google AI overview

Typically, we start with a description of the visual process from a third-person perspective - in other words, we describe what is objectively observable. Then, suddenly, and often unconsciously, we switch to first-person perspective by asking why we experience the process of seeing in a certain way. — Wolfgang

Third person is objective. First person is subjective. Objective looks at external physical things (objects). Subjective looks at internal metaphysical concepts (ideas). Even if a physical Cause of observed change is not obvious, we still infer (from common experience) that some Cause was necessary. (e.g. Where did that bullet come from? We automatically look in the direction of the bang).
"The problem of causality is a philosophical issue that involves the difficulty of determining which events are causes and which are effects." ___ Google AI overview

"Why does consciousness feel the way it feels?", which already contain in their formulation the assumption that there must be an objective explanation for subjective experiences. — Wolfgang

From experience with the physical world we learn (assumption) to look for a cause for every change in state. The only exceptions are found in the uncertainties of quantum physics, in which an effect may seem to precede the cause.
"The idea that every effect has a cause is known as universal causation. However, some physicists and philosophers question whether cause and effect are as straightforward as they seem". ___ Google AI overview

we ask questions that are tautological in themselves and therefore fundamentally unanswerable. — Wolfgang

"Why?" questions correlate Objective with Subjective. Philosophical vs Scientific. Any answer is not empirical/objective but theoretical & personal. Theoretical opinions may be accepted without empirical evidence if they feed a need. The ability to see complementary or contrasting colors (redness vs green) allows us to discriminate a predator from the vegetation. Example : wetness is not an objective observation, but subjective qualia. Is that walking surface slippery?

the majority of philosophical problems are based on linguistic confusion. — Wolfgang

Animals without language, also lack a philosophical ability to ask why? So, they seldom confuse What Is with What Ought to Be.

This evolutionary perspective shows that consciousness is essentially an adaptive function for optimizing survivability. — Wolfgang

The human ability to predict the future state of a physical system is the core of both Science and Philosophy. The difference is that Science uses that information for practical (material) purposes, while Philosophy uses that premonition for psychological reasons (feelings & meanings).

He argues that our perceptions of reality are not accurate reflections of the world as it truly is. Instead, he proposes that evolution has shaped our perceptions to prioritize survival. According to Hoffman, organisms that perceive the world in a way that maximizes fitness, rather than accuracy, are more likely to survive and reproduce. This leads to the conclusion that what we see, hear, and experience is not an objective representation of the world as it is, but a kind of 'user interface' designed to hide the complexity of reality and present simplified, useful representations to aid survival. — Wayfarer

Could it be argued that modern (enlightenment) Science is an attempt to improve observational accuracy for the purpose of learning to manipulate reality in service to human survival and thrival? Hence, not eliminative Materialism (matter only), but inclusive Realism (matter + mind). For example, the Webb telescope extends the range of our vision, not for practical survival purposes, but for theoretical knowledge that may have some specific survival advantages, if we humans ever encounter predatory aliens from foreign galaxies. In the meantime, that knowledge may be useful only for general philosophical applications : Ontology & Cosmology. :joke:

Ever read The Emperor's New Mind by Roger Penrose? — J
Tried and failed. The maths was beyond me. I’ve often enjoyed Sir Roger’s talks on other topics. I’ve recently written a Medium essay about his views on QM. — Wayfarer

I read Emperor's New Mind long ago, but much of it was over my head. Years later, I'm beginning to vaguely see what he was aiming at : Consciousness is not a material phenomenon, but a non-algorithmic mathematical (logical relationships) aspect of reality. Perhaps it can be traced back to the original LOGOS, the logic of the universe, giving it form and meaning. I doubt that Penrose thought in terms of the Platonic principle of Cosmic Reason as the essence of Consciousness. But he seems to be using immaterial mathematical metaphors which point in that direction.


"Penrose argues that human consciousness is non-algorithmic, and thus is not capable of being modeled by a conventional Turing machine, which includes a digital computer." ___Wikipedia

"Penrose hypothesizes that quantum mechanics plays an essential role in the understanding of human consciousness. The collapse of the quantum wavefunction is seen as playing an important role in brain function." ___Wikipedia

"The wavefunction is the ontological state of existence of systems in the universe. The wavefunction refers to the probabilistic knowledge that : (a) one physical system attributes to another physical system or (b) a fundamental element of consciousness attributes to a physical system."
https://philosophy.stackexchange.com/qu ... tive-vs-an

"Non-algorithmic mathematics involves metathought, which is the use of intuition, intention, and control. This is what distinguishes humans from machines, as machines are only endowed with an object-language, while metathought is described by a metalanguage." ___Google AI overview

What is logos in philosophy?
logos, in ancient Greek philosophy and early Christian theology, the divine reason implicit in the cosmos, ordering it and giving it form and meaning.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/logos

PENROSE IMPOSSIBLE TRIANGLE : to measure is to extract meaning
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"The wavefunction is the ontological state of existence of systems in the universe. — Gnomon
I take issue with that in this essay. — Wayfarer

The Philosophy StackExchange quote*1 probably should have said that the wavefunction equation represents mathematically the probabilistic ontology of the sub-atomic foundation of the universe. But that's more than a mouthful. And may not make sense without some explication.

I read your essay, The Timeless Wave, and agree with its conclusions*2. For example, where you say "the wave function doesn’t seem to operate within any physical medium", it raises the ancient vexed question of an invisible immaterial Aether within which to propagate. In my own thesis, I argue that the metaphysical Aether is immaterial, just like the hypothetical Quantum Vacuum*3 and the Universal Quantum Field*4. It's not physical or spiritual, but mathematical (statistical) and mental (logical). If Math & Mind are real, so is the statistical sphere of Probability. As such, it's the causal essence (EnFormAction) of the Enformationism*5 worldview; it's where events happen.

*1. "The wavefunction is the ontological state of existence of systems in the universe. The wavefunction refers to the probabilistic knowledge that : (a) one physical system attributes to another physical system or (b) a fundamental element of consciousness attributes to a physical system."
https://philosophy.stackexchange.com/qu ... tive-vs-an

*2. "And it’s all of this that makes the nature of the wave-function a metaphysical question, rather than a question of physics as such". ___ The Timeless Wave

*3. "Yes, the quantum vacuum can be considered the modern equivalent of the aether:"
___Google AI overview
Note --- empty space is considered to be a potential source of energy.

*4. Quantum Field Theory
A "Universal Quantum Field" in the context of theoretical physics, particularly within Quantum Field Theory (QFT), represents a hypothetical single field that could potentially encompass all fundamental forces and particles in the universe, described mathematically as a complex quantum field with properties that allow for the creation and interaction of all known elementary particles, essentially acting as a unified field where all particles arise as excitations or fluctuations within it; however, such a unified field is currently a theoretical concept with no definitive experimental verification.
___ Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy

*5. Enformationism :
A philosophical worldview or belief system grounded on the 20th century discovery that Information, rather than Matter, is the fundamental substance of everything in the universe. It is intended to be the 21st century successor to ancient Materialism. An Update from Bronze Age to Information Age. It's a Theory of Everything that covers, not just Matter & Energy, but also Life & Mind & Love.
https://blog-glossary.enformationism.info/page8.html
Note --- Causal EnFormAction is the essence of Energy, Matter, Aether, and Mind. See thesis for explanation.

↪Gnomon
Generally but watch out for the tendency to reify, 'make into a thing'. — Wayfarer

Thanks. You have warned me about "reification" before*1. But it seems that most Philosophy-versus- Science arguments, going back to Plato's Idealism, hinge on the Reality (plausibility ; utility ; significance) of abstractions. Are Mathematics and Metaphysics "real" or "ideal"? Regardless of how you categorize them, Ideal or Abstract non-things are very important for philosophical discussions, no?.

Is the Aether, postulated by physicists to explain such ideas as "vacuum energy" real or ideal? Here's what I said about that : "I argue that the metaphysical Aether is immaterial, just like the hypothetical Quantum Vacuum and the Universal Quantum Field. It's not physical or spiritual, but mathematical (statistical) and mental (logical). If Math & Mind are real, so is the statistical sphere of Probability & Potential.". Is "immaterial" the same as non-thing & unreal? Is Math a real thing, or an abstraction in a human mind? Is the Quantum Field*2 a perceivable real thing, or an abstract human concept?

I didn't claim that Aether is an actual physical thing, as some physicists seem to imply*2. Instead, I'm saying that it is the Potential for causal Energy ; which is the Potential for actual Matter*3. So, the philosophical question here seems to be : is Potential to Actual*4 the same as Reification". It seems to "make nothing into a thing".


*1. Reification means to treat something abstract as if it were a physical thing. For example, you might reify an abstract concept like fear, happiness, or evil.
The process of turning human concepts, actions, processes, relations, and properties into tangible things
___Google AI overview

*2. According to current scientific understanding, quantum fields are considered to be real, existing throughout space and acting as the fundamental building blocks of the universe, with experimental evidence supporting their existence and effects; although they are a theoretical construct, they provide incredibly accurate predictions about the behavior of particles and are considered the best explanation for our physical reality at the subatomic level.
___Google AI overview
Note --- Is "considered to be real" a fact or a belief? Is a "theoretical construct" a real thing, or a reification?

*3. Yes, "energy is potential for matter" means that energy represents the capacity to do work or cause change in matter, essentially acting as a stored potential that can be released to create movement or transformations within matter; this is often described as potential energy, which is energy stored due to an object's position or state, ready to be converted into kinetic energy (motion) when conditions change.
___Google AI overview

*4. In Aristotle's philosophy, potentiality is the capacity of something to develop into a specific state or perform a specific function, while actuality is the realization of that capacity. These concepts are central to understanding change and reality, and helped Aristotle explain how things can change while maintaining their identity.
___Google AI overview

Is an electron a wave or particle? How about neither and we come up with a better word? — Harry Hindu

Some have proposed "wavicle". What do you suggest?
My question about Math & Metaphysics was philosophical, not scientific. So the distinction between Real and Ideal is relevant for a philosophy forum.

What is a wavicle?
"It is in your dictionary. Something which simultaneously had the property of a wave and a particle in physics. My physics class was over 70 years ago so I’m not up on that contradictory word. It is like saying something is frozen and liquid at the same time. Like an “honest thief”.

Its a rather pathetic attempt to assign one ( made up) word to the wave-particle duality of nature that is described in quantum mechanics mathematics. Wave–particle duality ___Wikipedia.
https://www.quora.com/What-is-a-wavicle

Additionally, I dispute the idea that the brain is simply a 'physical object.' The brain might appear as a physical object when extracted from a body and examined by a pathologist or neuroscientist. But in its living context, the brain is part of an organism—embodied, encultured, and alive. In that sense, it's not just an object but part of a dynamic, living process that produces consciousness in ways that no computer can replicate. — Wayfarer

Good point! As an isolated lump of neural tissue, a brain is similar to your computer analogy : it processes data, but does not "understand" its meaning in the context of the wider world. On the other hand, a human body is a multi-function organism that does more than just process data. It also converts Energy into Life, and Data into Meaning.

The "more than" is characteristic of complex holistic systems. Complexity scientists cannot currently track each path of energy/data in body/brain to produce novel sentimental conscious concepts about the nurturing-yet-risky environment. But they are working on constructing an informative model of such autonomous integrated thinking & feeling systems*1.


*1. The New Science of Consciousness:
Exploring the Complexity of Brain, Mind, and Self
https://www.amazon.com/New-Science-Cons ... 1633882195

All knowledge must be integrated. Dualism causes problems. Monism solves those problems.
Either we take the attributes of waves and particles that do not contradict each other and integrate them into what it means to be a wavicle, or we come up with another word. What about process or information? — Harry Hindu

Yes! My personal worldview is Monistic & Integrated, and grounded on the 21st century science of Information. I call it Enformationism*1. From that perspective, I view quantum wavicles, not as material objects, but as mathematical (statistical) information*2, which is also the essence of Consciousness*3.

But another way to think of quantum reality is as a field of Potential that can become Actual : Quantum Field Theory. The monistic aspect of my philosophical thesis is that the world is all-Information-all-the-way-down. 21st century physics has equated Information with causal Energy*4, which is also transformable into Matter (E=MC^2). And ever-changing causal Energy (EnFormAction) can be described colloquially as a Verb*5. Does any of this make philosophical sense to you?


*1. Enformationism :
A philosophical worldview or belief system grounded on the 20th century discovery that Information, rather than Matter, is the fundamental substance of everything in the universe. It is intended to be the 21st century successor to ancient Materialism. An Update from Bronze Age to Information Age. It's a Theory of Everything that covers, not just matter & energy, but also Life & Mind & Love.
https://blog-glossary.enformationism.info/page8.html

*2. Information :
Knowledge and the ability to know. Technically, it's the ratio of order to disorder, of positive to negative, of knowledge to ignorance. It's measured in degrees of uncertainty. Those ratios are also called "differences". So Gregory Bateson defined Information as "the difference that makes a difference". The latter distinction refers to "value" or "meaning". Babbage called his prototype computer a "difference engine". Difference is the cause or agent of Change. In Physics it’s called "Thermodynamics" or "Energy". In Sociology it’s called "Conflict". In language it's called a "Verb".
https://blog-glossary.enformationism.info/page11.html

*3. Consciousness :
Literally : to know with. To be aware of the world subjectively (self-knowledge) and objectively (other-knowing). Humans know Quanta via physical senses & analysis, and Qualia via meta-physical reasoning & synthesis. In the Enformationism thesis, Consciousness is viewed as an emergent form of basic mathematical Information : ratios & relationships.
https://blog-glossary.enformationism.info/page12.html

*4. How is information related to energy in physics?
Energy is the relationship between information regimes. That is, energy is manifested, at any level, between structures, processes and systems of information in all of its forms, and all entities in this universe is composed of information.
https://physics.stackexchange.com/quest ... in-physics

*5. One way to think of a Wavicle :
If everything is made of wavicles and vibrating all the time, then isn’t everything a verb?
https://www.reddit.com/r/AlanWatts/comm ... in_motion/

If so, why is this brain-centered higher-order memory function immaterial? — ucarr

Meaning is a Meta-Narrative that is created in the brain out of incoming information, from external environment and inner milieu. In lower animals, Memory may simply record raw data. But in humans, Meaning places the world data in relationship to the Self-concept. As I understand it, meta- refers to anything that is over & above meaningless matter : the Map is not the Terrain. The rational Mind gives us a new perspective above & beyond that of the physical eyes.

Mind is a holistic Function of brain, not identical with the neural network. And a Function is an input-output relationship, not an object. Also, the abstract mental Output is more-than the concrete material Input. The Whole system (mind) is more than the sum of its parts (neurons + data). The parts may be physical and material, but the holistic processing system produces Ideas & Concepts, with no material properties, hence immaterial.

21st century physics has equated Information with causal Energy — Gnomon
So, you embrace the understanding information is physico-material? — ucarr

Yes. I call Energy the power to enform, to give form to the formless*1. The roots of "information" literally mean : the act of giving form". The result is to create meanings (forms) in a mind. The link below expands on on that strange notion.

The Big Bang theory postulates that the early universe was a pre-material plasma of quarks & gluons, which are hypothetical undetectable particles of sub-sub-atomic-matter. Yet the Cosmologists necessarily, but implicitly, assume that causal Energy and natural Laws (relationship principles) existed eternally before the beginning of our space-time. Another unstated assumption is that the Potential for mental phenomena (awareness) was inherent in whatever went "bang!".

That combination of Cause & Laws is what I call EnFormAction (EFA) : the natural holistic tendency to create complex systems from simpler components. One form of EFA in the known world is Gravity. Presumably that attractive force couldn't exist without Matter and Space, so it would have to emerge along with the stuff that fills space, which is curved to fit around those little bundles of inter-attraction. This both-physical-&-material (space/time, energy/matter, brain/mind) "understanding" is also implicit in what I call the BothAnd Principle*2.

*1. What is Information?
The Power to Enform
https://bothandblog6.enformationism.info/page16.html

*2. Both/And Principle :
My coinage for the holistic principle of Complementarity, as illustrated in the Yin/Yang symbol. Opposing or contrasting concepts are always part of a greater whole. Conflicts between parts can be reconciled or harmonized by putting them into the context of a whole system.
# The Enformationism worldview entails the principles of Complementarity, Reciprocity & Holism, which are necessary to offset the negative effects of Fragmentation, Isolation & Reductionism. Analysis into parts is necessary for knowledge of the mechanics of the world, but synthesis of those parts into a whole system is required for the wisdom to integrate the self into the larger system. In a philosophical sense, all opposites in this world (e.g. space/time, good/evil) are ultimately reconciled in Enfernity (eternity & infinity).
# Conceptually, the BothAnd principle is similar to Einstein's theory of Relativity, in that what you see ─ what’s true for you ─ depends on your perspective, and your frame of reference; for example, subjective or objective, religious or scientific, reductive or holistic, pragmatic or romantic, conservative or liberal, earthbound or cosmic. Ultimate or absolute reality (ideality) doesn't change, but your conception of reality does. Opposing views are not right or wrong, but more or less accurate for a particular purpose.
# This principle is also similar to the concept of Superposition in sub-atomic physics. In this ambiguous state a particle has no fixed identity until “observed” by an outside system. For example, in a Quantum Computer, a Qubit has a value of all possible fractions between 1 & 0. Therefore, you could say that it is both 1 and 0.
https://blog-glossary.enformationism.info/page10.html

Information Philosopher : "Information is neither matter nor energy, although it needs matter to be embodied and energy to be communicated. Why should it become the preferred basis for all philosophy?"
http://www.informationphilosopher.com/i ... formation/