TPF : Immaterialism
Re: TPF : Immateriaism
A particle is no concept. It's a reality. — Cornwell1
Is that an empirical fact, or a theoretical belief? Is the particle physical or virtual?
Do virtual particles actually physically exist? :
Thus virtual particles exist only in the mathematics of the model used to describe the measurements of real particles . To coin a word virtual particles are particlemorphic ( ), having a form like particle but not a particle.
https://physics.stackexchange.com/quest ... ally-exist
Is that an empirical fact, or a theoretical belief? Is the particle physical or virtual?
Do virtual particles actually physically exist? :
Thus virtual particles exist only in the mathematics of the model used to describe the measurements of real particles . To coin a word virtual particles are particlemorphic ( ), having a form like particle but not a particle.
https://physics.stackexchange.com/quest ... ally-exist
Re: TPF : Immateriaism
what you're saying is, noise generates signals from noise. — 180 Proof
Do you think mind=noise??? — RogueAI
↪180 Proof's assertion was intentionally ridiculous, because he's trying to make your position sound absurd. His vigorous defense of Orthodox Materialism, attacks what he perceives as heretical Immaterialism (or spiritualism, or idealism). To him, Mind is a Myth or Illusion. So any reference to such phantoms is only so much noise.
I would re-word his quoted phrase as : "the rational Mind interprets meaningful signals from incoming Information. That which is not informative is noise." I actually enjoy sparring with him, just as I used to dialog with devout Christian propagandists, because it's good exercise for my own rational faculties to distinguish Information from Noise.
PS__I will apologize in advance for mis-representing his philosophical position. But that's because he mostly attacks other beliefs, but doesn't make his own position clear. That's a common tactic in propaganda. It's a one-way dialog.
Do you think mind=noise??? — RogueAI
↪180 Proof's assertion was intentionally ridiculous, because he's trying to make your position sound absurd. His vigorous defense of Orthodox Materialism, attacks what he perceives as heretical Immaterialism (or spiritualism, or idealism). To him, Mind is a Myth or Illusion. So any reference to such phantoms is only so much noise.
I would re-word his quoted phrase as : "the rational Mind interprets meaningful signals from incoming Information. That which is not informative is noise." I actually enjoy sparring with him, just as I used to dialog with devout Christian propagandists, because it's good exercise for my own rational faculties to distinguish Information from Noise.
PS__I will apologize in advance for mis-representing his philosophical position. But that's because he mostly attacks other beliefs, but doesn't make his own position clear. That's a common tactic in propaganda. It's a one-way dialog.
Re: TPF : Immateriaism
Strawman. Stop your onanistic bs, G. :lol: — 180 Proof
Is that your final answer to the question of Immaterialism?
Is that your final answer to the question of Immaterialism?
Re: TPF : Immaterialism
Strawman. Stop your onanistic bs, G. :lol: — 180 Proof
Is that your final answer to the question of Immaterialism? — Gnomon
Language, Mr. Proof. Watch your language! There are sensitive immaterial minds on this forum.
↪Gnomon
"Immaterialism" as in e.g. dis-embodied minds? Res ipsa loquitur. — 180 Proof
No. Once again you miss the point, because you can't put your physical finger on a Function. The target is invisible to the eye, but knowable to a rational Mind. Do you have one of those spooky non-things? Or are you ipso facto dis-enminded?
"Immaterialism" refers to the mental functions of embodied brains. It's not about wandering ghosts or out-of-body experiences. That would be Spiritualism. "If one did not start with a materialist bias, materialism would not be invoked as an explanation for a whole range of experiments in neuroscience " ___Michael Egnor, neuroscientist
Instead, it's the age-old philosophical category of mental Qualia as contrasted with material Quanta. If you are so sure that the Mind is a material object, you could prove it by posting a picture of one. Does the mind show-up in electron microscope images? Even atoms look like anonymous balls of fluff. So what does the Mind look like, gray matter or white matter? The burden of proof is back in your court. :joke:
what is a function? :
A technical definition of a function is: a relation from a set of inputs to a set of possible outputs where each input is related to exactly one output. ... We can write the statement that f is a function from X to Y using the function notation f:X→Y.
https://mathinsight.org/definition/function
Note -- The function of a mechanism is not the machine, but the purpose of the process.
Is the Mind Immaterial or Material? :
Of course, dualism doesn’t necessarily answer these questions, merely pushing it back a level, but materialism has yet to explain it either, generating a sort of infinite regress of homunculi.
https://authortomharper.com/2019/06/13/ ... -material/
Science Points To An Immaterial Mind :
For example, I pointed out that abstract thought cannot be localized to one specific region of the brain, whereas perception and movement are highly localizable. I interpreted this as being most consistent with the immateriality of abstract thought.
Michael Egnor; neurosurgeon, and Senior Fellow, Center for Natural & Artificial Intelligence
https://mindmatters.ai/2019/06/science- ... rial-mind/
WHERE CAN WE FIND THE MIND?
https://assets.technologynetworks.com/p ... 80x720.jpg
Is that your final answer to the question of Immaterialism? — Gnomon
Language, Mr. Proof. Watch your language! There are sensitive immaterial minds on this forum.
↪Gnomon
"Immaterialism" as in e.g. dis-embodied minds? Res ipsa loquitur. — 180 Proof
No. Once again you miss the point, because you can't put your physical finger on a Function. The target is invisible to the eye, but knowable to a rational Mind. Do you have one of those spooky non-things? Or are you ipso facto dis-enminded?
"Immaterialism" refers to the mental functions of embodied brains. It's not about wandering ghosts or out-of-body experiences. That would be Spiritualism. "If one did not start with a materialist bias, materialism would not be invoked as an explanation for a whole range of experiments in neuroscience " ___Michael Egnor, neuroscientist
Instead, it's the age-old philosophical category of mental Qualia as contrasted with material Quanta. If you are so sure that the Mind is a material object, you could prove it by posting a picture of one. Does the mind show-up in electron microscope images? Even atoms look like anonymous balls of fluff. So what does the Mind look like, gray matter or white matter? The burden of proof is back in your court. :joke:
what is a function? :
A technical definition of a function is: a relation from a set of inputs to a set of possible outputs where each input is related to exactly one output. ... We can write the statement that f is a function from X to Y using the function notation f:X→Y.
https://mathinsight.org/definition/function
Note -- The function of a mechanism is not the machine, but the purpose of the process.
Is the Mind Immaterial or Material? :
Of course, dualism doesn’t necessarily answer these questions, merely pushing it back a level, but materialism has yet to explain it either, generating a sort of infinite regress of homunculi.
https://authortomharper.com/2019/06/13/ ... -material/
Science Points To An Immaterial Mind :
For example, I pointed out that abstract thought cannot be localized to one specific region of the brain, whereas perception and movement are highly localizable. I interpreted this as being most consistent with the immateriality of abstract thought.
Michael Egnor; neurosurgeon, and Senior Fellow, Center for Natural & Artificial Intelligence
https://mindmatters.ai/2019/06/science- ... rial-mind/
WHERE CAN WE FIND THE MIND?
https://assets.technologynetworks.com/p ... 80x720.jpg
Re: TPF : Immaterialism
In what else than matter can the mind reside? — Cornwell1
The philosophical question is not where Mind resides, but what is Mind? If it's not a material object, then it's immaterial. Many of the posts on this thread are talking past each other. When the topic is about "immaterialism" it's referring to Qualia, not Quanta. Qualia, as subjective patterns, can reside in a variety of material objects. Pattern recognition occurs, not in a Brain, but in a Mind. The "observer" is not a homunculus. Qualia is "what it feels like" to observe a pattern of incoming information.
Of course, on the macro level of reality, those patterns are always associated with physical things. But on the quantum scale that common-sense association breaks down. Reductionism ad absurdo, ("reducing to an absurdity.") Yet some, but not all, physicists persist in trying to maintain an illusion of the old Materialistic model of hard little atoms as the fundamental elements of reality. For example, what they now call "virtual" particles, are not bits of matter, but merely mathematical points in an imaginary grid. A "point" has no spatial dimensions, so we can't see them, we can only imagine them. Like the Cheshire Cat, the matter just fades away, leaving only a smile.
From Quanta to Qualia: How a Paradigm Shift Turns Into Science :
Ever since the development of quantum mechanics in the first part of the 20th century, a new world view has emerged. Today, the physicalist objective assumption that objects exist independently of acts of observation has been challenged. The repercussions of this radical challenge to our common-sense perception of the world are far-reaching, although not yet generally realized. Here we argue that there is a complementary view to the way science which is being practiced, and that consciousness itself is primary and qualia form the foundation of experience. We outline the arguments of why the new science of qualia will tie objects that are being perceived to the subjective experience, through the units of subjective experience called qualia.
https://digitalcommons.chapman.edu/scs_articles/152/
WHERE'S THE CAT?
http://gnomon.enformationism.info/Image ... 220413.png
The philosophical question is not where Mind resides, but what is Mind? If it's not a material object, then it's immaterial. Many of the posts on this thread are talking past each other. When the topic is about "immaterialism" it's referring to Qualia, not Quanta. Qualia, as subjective patterns, can reside in a variety of material objects. Pattern recognition occurs, not in a Brain, but in a Mind. The "observer" is not a homunculus. Qualia is "what it feels like" to observe a pattern of incoming information.
Of course, on the macro level of reality, those patterns are always associated with physical things. But on the quantum scale that common-sense association breaks down. Reductionism ad absurdo, ("reducing to an absurdity.") Yet some, but not all, physicists persist in trying to maintain an illusion of the old Materialistic model of hard little atoms as the fundamental elements of reality. For example, what they now call "virtual" particles, are not bits of matter, but merely mathematical points in an imaginary grid. A "point" has no spatial dimensions, so we can't see them, we can only imagine them. Like the Cheshire Cat, the matter just fades away, leaving only a smile.
From Quanta to Qualia: How a Paradigm Shift Turns Into Science :
Ever since the development of quantum mechanics in the first part of the 20th century, a new world view has emerged. Today, the physicalist objective assumption that objects exist independently of acts of observation has been challenged. The repercussions of this radical challenge to our common-sense perception of the world are far-reaching, although not yet generally realized. Here we argue that there is a complementary view to the way science which is being practiced, and that consciousness itself is primary and qualia form the foundation of experience. We outline the arguments of why the new science of qualia will tie objects that are being perceived to the subjective experience, through the units of subjective experience called qualia.
https://digitalcommons.chapman.edu/scs_articles/152/
WHERE'S THE CAT?
http://gnomon.enformationism.info/Image ... 220413.png
Re: TPF : Immaterialism
I'm not sure what's so special about the quantum scale. — Cornwell1
The link in my last post will give you an overview of what's special enough about Quantum physics to call it a "Paradigm Shift". That's why physicists now distinguish between the Classical physics of Newton, and the Quantum physics of the 20th century. It was the radical new worldview of non-local acausal physics that inspired Thomas Kuhn to coin a novel phrase. What used to be Common Sense becomes marginalized in the new era. For example, Matter is now defined by ideal mathematical Points instead of real material Atoms.
Are We in the Middle of a Paradigm Shift? :
If Einstein was such a creative thinker that he literally redefined our view of the world, why did he reject one of the basic implications of quantum physics?
https://www.advisorperspectives.com/com ... digm-shift
The link in my last post will give you an overview of what's special enough about Quantum physics to call it a "Paradigm Shift". That's why physicists now distinguish between the Classical physics of Newton, and the Quantum physics of the 20th century. It was the radical new worldview of non-local acausal physics that inspired Thomas Kuhn to coin a novel phrase. What used to be Common Sense becomes marginalized in the new era. For example, Matter is now defined by ideal mathematical Points instead of real material Atoms.
Are We in the Middle of a Paradigm Shift? :
If Einstein was such a creative thinker that he literally redefined our view of the world, why did he reject one of the basic implications of quantum physics?
https://www.advisorperspectives.com/com ... digm-shift
Re: TPF : Immaterialism
So there is incoming information. From where?
If there is an Inside and an Outside to existence, then physicalism holds (or at least dualism does). It doesn't matter what form the Outside takes - whether it be atoms, or points, or the mind of God. These are just different names for a thing we can never truly know, but acknowledge must be. The only alternative is solipsism. — Real Gone Cat
You may have mis-interpreted my definition of Qualia. I was not referring to information coming in from some sublime source outside the universe. Instead, I was talking about mundane information, usually as some form of energy, that's incoming from outside the body of the observer. AFAIK, we receive meaningful information primarily via our physical senses. One internal source of information though, might be what we call "intuition". Some like to think that it's God talking to you. But it's more likely information that has been processed sub-consciously, which is important enough to be reported to the conscious mind. Intuition is not "solipsism", even though it comes from within.
However, my personal worldview is based on the idea that Information is ubiquitous. It's not just in computers, it's everywhere ; in sensible physical forms, such as Matter, and in semi-physical forms, such as Energy. We used to think of Energy as a physical substance (phlogiston), but physicists now define it in terms of mathematical wave functions. Our sensory organs can translate those vibrating waves of potential (think Morse code) into material forms (e.g. rhodopsin, transforms light into electricity). Likewise, our rational Mind translates incoming Information into meaning. Moreover, the Big Bang theory implies that some energy source from "outside" the space-time universe, was the original input of Information, or as I like to spell it : EnFormAction (the power to give form to the formless)
The physical world is indeed dualistic, if you make a distinction between Matter & Mind as different forms of "something". We know that Matter is a tangible form of Energy, But what is Mind made of? I think Matter, Energy, & Mind are all forms of Generic Information. Hence, our Dualism could be construed as Tripleism. However, if all those are distinguishable forms of a single universal "something", then the ultimate -ism would be Monism. Spinoza defined "God" as the "single substance consisting of infinite attributes". In my own thesis, that universal substance is shape-shifting Information. My website and blog explain how I arrived at that conclusion, by combining Quantum Theory with Information Theory. Therefore, my answer to "what form the Outside takes" is what I call EnFormAction (energy + form + action). You can call it "God", but I prefer to call that "thing we can never know" : Enformer, or Programmer.
EnFormAction :
Metaphorically, it's the Will-power of G*D, which is the First Cause of everything in creation. Aquinas called the Omnipotence of God the "Primary Cause", so EFA is the general cause of every-thing in the world. Energy, Matter, Gravity, Life, Mind are secondary creative causes, each with limited application.
BothAnd Blog Glossary
If there is an Inside and an Outside to existence, then physicalism holds (or at least dualism does). It doesn't matter what form the Outside takes - whether it be atoms, or points, or the mind of God. These are just different names for a thing we can never truly know, but acknowledge must be. The only alternative is solipsism. — Real Gone Cat
You may have mis-interpreted my definition of Qualia. I was not referring to information coming in from some sublime source outside the universe. Instead, I was talking about mundane information, usually as some form of energy, that's incoming from outside the body of the observer. AFAIK, we receive meaningful information primarily via our physical senses. One internal source of information though, might be what we call "intuition". Some like to think that it's God talking to you. But it's more likely information that has been processed sub-consciously, which is important enough to be reported to the conscious mind. Intuition is not "solipsism", even though it comes from within.
However, my personal worldview is based on the idea that Information is ubiquitous. It's not just in computers, it's everywhere ; in sensible physical forms, such as Matter, and in semi-physical forms, such as Energy. We used to think of Energy as a physical substance (phlogiston), but physicists now define it in terms of mathematical wave functions. Our sensory organs can translate those vibrating waves of potential (think Morse code) into material forms (e.g. rhodopsin, transforms light into electricity). Likewise, our rational Mind translates incoming Information into meaning. Moreover, the Big Bang theory implies that some energy source from "outside" the space-time universe, was the original input of Information, or as I like to spell it : EnFormAction (the power to give form to the formless)
The physical world is indeed dualistic, if you make a distinction between Matter & Mind as different forms of "something". We know that Matter is a tangible form of Energy, But what is Mind made of? I think Matter, Energy, & Mind are all forms of Generic Information. Hence, our Dualism could be construed as Tripleism. However, if all those are distinguishable forms of a single universal "something", then the ultimate -ism would be Monism. Spinoza defined "God" as the "single substance consisting of infinite attributes". In my own thesis, that universal substance is shape-shifting Information. My website and blog explain how I arrived at that conclusion, by combining Quantum Theory with Information Theory. Therefore, my answer to "what form the Outside takes" is what I call EnFormAction (energy + form + action). You can call it "God", but I prefer to call that "thing we can never know" : Enformer, or Programmer.
EnFormAction :
Metaphorically, it's the Will-power of G*D, which is the First Cause of everything in creation. Aquinas called the Omnipotence of God the "Primary Cause", so EFA is the general cause of every-thing in the world. Energy, Matter, Gravity, Life, Mind are secondary creative causes, each with limited application.
BothAnd Blog Glossary
Re: TPF : Immaterialism
Where Gnomon goes wrong is to call that entirely physical process "immaterialism". — Real Gone Cat
I have been repeatedly cautioned to not cross the line from Physics into the danger zone of Meta-Physics. But, if we ignore the "immaterial" aspects of reality, we are dismissing the importance of Mind as a new feature of the evolving world. Until only a few thousand years ago, the universe was completely mindless. But since then, Nature has been transformed into Culture. Was the force behind that emergence aimless Energy or inert Matter? Or was it the future-focused set of ideas & purposes we know as the human Mind? Must we pretend to be blind to mind?
In a sense, Nature has given birth to a completely new kind of power : Intention. If you can reconcile mundane Physics with Purpose, then I suppose you could equate Mind with Matter. But then, what kind of material is a "physical process" made of? What physical force set the direction for evolution, so that it could produce Technology? Physics deliberately excluded mental phenomena from consideration until it was forced to acknowledge the role of Observers in otherwise "entirely physical processes". But Philosophy is not physics. So it can freely cross the non-physical barrier into Meta-Physics (not Spiritualism, but Mentalism). Nature did not scruple to cross that arbitrary line, when it turned Matter into Mind.
Process : a series of actions or steps taken in order to achieve a particular end.
Concept :
in the Analytic school of philosophy, the subject matter of philosophy, which philosophers of the Analytic school hold to be concerned with the salient features of the language in which people speak of concepts at issue.
Note -- are concepts material or immaterial? What kind of matter are they made of? Are they Real or Ideal?
I have been repeatedly cautioned to not cross the line from Physics into the danger zone of Meta-Physics. But, if we ignore the "immaterial" aspects of reality, we are dismissing the importance of Mind as a new feature of the evolving world. Until only a few thousand years ago, the universe was completely mindless. But since then, Nature has been transformed into Culture. Was the force behind that emergence aimless Energy or inert Matter? Or was it the future-focused set of ideas & purposes we know as the human Mind? Must we pretend to be blind to mind?
In a sense, Nature has given birth to a completely new kind of power : Intention. If you can reconcile mundane Physics with Purpose, then I suppose you could equate Mind with Matter. But then, what kind of material is a "physical process" made of? What physical force set the direction for evolution, so that it could produce Technology? Physics deliberately excluded mental phenomena from consideration until it was forced to acknowledge the role of Observers in otherwise "entirely physical processes". But Philosophy is not physics. So it can freely cross the non-physical barrier into Meta-Physics (not Spiritualism, but Mentalism). Nature did not scruple to cross that arbitrary line, when it turned Matter into Mind.
Process : a series of actions or steps taken in order to achieve a particular end.
Concept :
in the Analytic school of philosophy, the subject matter of philosophy, which philosophers of the Analytic school hold to be concerned with the salient features of the language in which people speak of concepts at issue.
Note -- are concepts material or immaterial? What kind of matter are they made of? Are they Real or Ideal?
Re: TPF : Immaterialism
My "favorite" book of philosophy of mind (or neurophilosophy) is still, after 15+ years, Being No One by Thomas Metzinger — 180 Proof
I wasn't familiar with Metzinger, so I Googled the book name. From my cursory glance, his view seems to agree with my own understanding of "Self". I prefer to use that term in place of the ancient notion of an immaterial "Soul", which was assumed to be able to leave the body behind during drug trips & NDEs, and which could exit the material world in case of Final Death. In my view, the Self is not a wandering Spirit, but merely a mental representation of the body. As a mental model it is no more real than the scientific notion of a Virtual Particle, which is Potential minus Actual.
That's why I place it in the category of "Immaterial" (made of abstract ideas instead of concrete matter). That being the case, I don't understand why you like the concept of "Being No One", but reject the idea of an immaterial Self image. The Self is not separarable from the physical body, but it's also not the same substance as the body. That may sound like traditional Dualism, but ultimately the substance of both Mind and Body is Monistic Enformation (the potential to cause changes in form or pattern).
Like Spinoza's "universal substance" EnFormAction is neither Matter nor Energy, but only Potential. So, my worldview is Monistic, but it allows for multiple sub-categories with different properties. For example, Matter is Actual, Energy is Causal, and Mind is Ideal (the map or model is an abstract version of the terrain or object).
Being No One :
According to Thomas Metzinger, no such things as selves exist in the world: nobody ever had or was a self. All that exists are phenomenal selves, as they appear in conscious experience. The phenomenal self, however, is not a thing but an ongoing process; it is the content of a "transparent self-model."
https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/being-no-one
Note -- the mental process is like a movie, a running representation of reality, not the ding an sich.
Self/Soul :
The brain can create the image of a fictional person (the Self) to represent its own perspective in dealings with other things and persons.
1. This imaginary Me is a low-resolution construct abstracted from the complex web of inter-relationships that actually form the human body, brain, mind, DNA, and social networks in the context of a vast universe. . . .
3. Because of the fanciful & magical connotations of the traditional definition for "Soul" (e.g. ghosts), Enformationism prefers the more practical term "Self".
BothAnd Blog Glossary
Virtual : not physically existing. It is distinguished from the real by the fact that it lacks an absolute, physical form. It is a mental simulation of a real or potential thing.
Potential : having or showing the capacity to become or develop into something in the future.
Note -- that definition sounds suspiciously akin to the definition of causal Energy. Which is why I coined the neologism : EnFormAction.
Abstraction : Universal or General or Ideal concepts instead of particular things or objects. The idea of a thing as contrasted with the real Thing. A pattern of inter-relationships that make a thing what it is, but minus the matter.
I wasn't familiar with Metzinger, so I Googled the book name. From my cursory glance, his view seems to agree with my own understanding of "Self". I prefer to use that term in place of the ancient notion of an immaterial "Soul", which was assumed to be able to leave the body behind during drug trips & NDEs, and which could exit the material world in case of Final Death. In my view, the Self is not a wandering Spirit, but merely a mental representation of the body. As a mental model it is no more real than the scientific notion of a Virtual Particle, which is Potential minus Actual.
That's why I place it in the category of "Immaterial" (made of abstract ideas instead of concrete matter). That being the case, I don't understand why you like the concept of "Being No One", but reject the idea of an immaterial Self image. The Self is not separarable from the physical body, but it's also not the same substance as the body. That may sound like traditional Dualism, but ultimately the substance of both Mind and Body is Monistic Enformation (the potential to cause changes in form or pattern).
Like Spinoza's "universal substance" EnFormAction is neither Matter nor Energy, but only Potential. So, my worldview is Monistic, but it allows for multiple sub-categories with different properties. For example, Matter is Actual, Energy is Causal, and Mind is Ideal (the map or model is an abstract version of the terrain or object).
Being No One :
According to Thomas Metzinger, no such things as selves exist in the world: nobody ever had or was a self. All that exists are phenomenal selves, as they appear in conscious experience. The phenomenal self, however, is not a thing but an ongoing process; it is the content of a "transparent self-model."
https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/being-no-one
Note -- the mental process is like a movie, a running representation of reality, not the ding an sich.
Self/Soul :
The brain can create the image of a fictional person (the Self) to represent its own perspective in dealings with other things and persons.
1. This imaginary Me is a low-resolution construct abstracted from the complex web of inter-relationships that actually form the human body, brain, mind, DNA, and social networks in the context of a vast universe. . . .
3. Because of the fanciful & magical connotations of the traditional definition for "Soul" (e.g. ghosts), Enformationism prefers the more practical term "Self".
BothAnd Blog Glossary
Virtual : not physically existing. It is distinguished from the real by the fact that it lacks an absolute, physical form. It is a mental simulation of a real or potential thing.
Potential : having or showing the capacity to become or develop into something in the future.
Note -- that definition sounds suspiciously akin to the definition of causal Energy. Which is why I coined the neologism : EnFormAction.
Abstraction : Universal or General or Ideal concepts instead of particular things or objects. The idea of a thing as contrasted with the real Thing. A pattern of inter-relationships that make a thing what it is, but minus the matter.
Re: TPF : Immaterialism
In fact, the observer effect exists in classical physics as well - to measure air pressure in a tire, we must let out a little air, thus changing the pressure. — Real Gone Cat
What you are calling "observer effect" is actually the "measurement effect". The measuring tools of quantum observers are typically wave/particles, such as photons, that have momentum, and consequently transfer some of that force to the object it is measuring. Their impact on the target is not like a bullet (local) though, but like a tidal wave (non-local). In a still mysterious transformation, the non-physical intention of observation causes a continuous wave to "collapse" into a dis-continuous bullet. That doesn't happen in Classical Physics, except when super-heroes use mind-control to move matter.
Those who deny the "observer effect" are assuming that the scientists setting-up the experiment are not smart enough to avoid the measurement problem. The early 20th century pioneers of QT didn't have the technology to minimize the energy exchange. But even 21st century researchers haven't been able to completely eliminate the problem. So, when you caution me (a non-physicist) from citing Quantum Physics as an example of something "non-physical", you are also arguing with some of "the greatest minds of the 20th century".
What Is The Observer Effect In Quantum Mechanics? :
The quantum “observer’s” capacity to detect electrons could be altered by changing its electrical conductivity, or the strength of the current passing through it. Apart from “observing,” or detecting the electrons, the detector had no effect on the current. Even so, the scientists found that the very presence of the detector “observer” near one of the openings caused changes in the interference pattern of the electron waves passing through the openings of the barrier.
https://www.scienceabc.com/pure-science ... anics.html
What counts has an observation in quantum mechanics? Does a person need to be involved? :
The problem is that an observation implies something non-physical. . . . The root cause of this confusion is the nature of a measurement. A measurement has both a physical and a non-physical component. , , , This measurement problem has plagued many of the greatest minds of the 20th century, such as Einstein, von Neumann, Schrödinger, and Wigner.
___Mark John Fernee , , 20+ years as a physicist
https://www.quora.com/Is-it-possible-to ... um-physics
What you are calling "observer effect" is actually the "measurement effect". The measuring tools of quantum observers are typically wave/particles, such as photons, that have momentum, and consequently transfer some of that force to the object it is measuring. Their impact on the target is not like a bullet (local) though, but like a tidal wave (non-local). In a still mysterious transformation, the non-physical intention of observation causes a continuous wave to "collapse" into a dis-continuous bullet. That doesn't happen in Classical Physics, except when super-heroes use mind-control to move matter.
Those who deny the "observer effect" are assuming that the scientists setting-up the experiment are not smart enough to avoid the measurement problem. The early 20th century pioneers of QT didn't have the technology to minimize the energy exchange. But even 21st century researchers haven't been able to completely eliminate the problem. So, when you caution me (a non-physicist) from citing Quantum Physics as an example of something "non-physical", you are also arguing with some of "the greatest minds of the 20th century".
What Is The Observer Effect In Quantum Mechanics? :
The quantum “observer’s” capacity to detect electrons could be altered by changing its electrical conductivity, or the strength of the current passing through it. Apart from “observing,” or detecting the electrons, the detector had no effect on the current. Even so, the scientists found that the very presence of the detector “observer” near one of the openings caused changes in the interference pattern of the electron waves passing through the openings of the barrier.
https://www.scienceabc.com/pure-science ... anics.html
What counts has an observation in quantum mechanics? Does a person need to be involved? :
The problem is that an observation implies something non-physical. . . . The root cause of this confusion is the nature of a measurement. A measurement has both a physical and a non-physical component. , , , This measurement problem has plagued many of the greatest minds of the 20th century, such as Einstein, von Neumann, Schrödinger, and Wigner.
___Mark John Fernee , , 20+ years as a physicist
https://www.quora.com/Is-it-possible-to ... um-physics
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 35 guests