If it's not a material object, then it's immaterial. — Gnomon
Another false dichotomy – occupational hazard of dualism ("BothAnd" ), no doubt. — 180 Proof
Are you implying that "Material" and "Immaterial" are the same thing? That they are indistinguishable? That they play the same role in reality? From what philosophical position are Qualia and Quanta identical?
Yes, my BothAnd thesis can reconcile their obvious practical difference by noting that they consist of the same ultimate substance : not matter, but the universal potential (power) to enform both things and ideas. Material stuff and Immaterial ideas are both parts of a greater Whole. For example, Energy (causation) is mathematically equivalent to Mass (matter), but in physical reality they are different forms of the same non-stuff, Potential : to become. To be material, or to be immaterial; that is the question.
False equivalence is a logical fallacy in which an equivalence is drawn between two subjects based on flawed or false reasoning. This fallacy is categorized as a fallacy of inconsistency. Colloquially, a false equivalence is often called "comparing apples and oranges."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalence
Both/And Principle :
My coinage for the holistic principle of Complementarity, as illustrated in the Yin/Yang symbol. Opposing or contrasting concepts are always part of a greater whole. Conflicts between parts can be reconciled or harmonized by putting them into the context of a whole system.
BothAnd Glossary
TPF : Immaterialism
Re: TPF : Immaterialism
↪180 Proof
Whenever I say something you don’t understand, which happens a lot, you call it a ‘non sequitur’. Is thinking reducible to neural matter, or is it not? If that is not an intelligible question, then say why it is not, instead of reverting to your usual codified nonsense, if that is even possible for you. — Wayfarer
I suspect that 180 is using Mohamed Ali's "rope-a-dope" strategy, trying to wear you down by chasing his shifty position. He doesn't often hit you with a real argument, but merely throws accusatory jabs & jibes at you. He may think of his strategy as Socratic gad-fly, but it comes across as annoying-gnat. I take the bait sometimes, when I need the exercise.
To jibe means to say something rude or insulting that is intended to make another person look foolish.
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/di ... glish/jibe
Whenever I say something you don’t understand, which happens a lot, you call it a ‘non sequitur’. Is thinking reducible to neural matter, or is it not? If that is not an intelligible question, then say why it is not, instead of reverting to your usual codified nonsense, if that is even possible for you. — Wayfarer
I suspect that 180 is using Mohamed Ali's "rope-a-dope" strategy, trying to wear you down by chasing his shifty position. He doesn't often hit you with a real argument, but merely throws accusatory jabs & jibes at you. He may think of his strategy as Socratic gad-fly, but it comes across as annoying-gnat. I take the bait sometimes, when I need the exercise.
To jibe means to say something rude or insulting that is intended to make another person look foolish.
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/di ... glish/jibe
Re: TPF : Immaterialism
The problem with "Materialism"
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussi ... ent/649987
So, I have this question: "Is there any meaning in talking about 'materialism' to materialists, since they can't see or think that there's anything else than matter, anyway?" That is, it is something self-evident for them. You can see this also as a paradox: "Materialism has no meaning for a materialist"! — Alkis Piskas
I agree. Self-evident axioms are a good starting point, but if not off-set by new input, they will go full circle, back to the original position, nothing learned.
An uncompromising materialist-physicalist seems to think of his worldview, not necessarily as Materialistic, but as Realistic. It's a Black versus White position, that makes no allowance for anything Idealistic or Non-empirical. Hence, their posting on a philosophy forum is not necessarily a search for Truth or Meaning, but for Superiority or Dominance. They may feel superior because they have Science on their side ; just as some aggressive Christians act condescending, because they have God on their side. Both prefer Assertion to Argument. For the haughty, two-way Philosophical dialog is for losers.
An axiom, postulate or assumption is a statement that is taken to be true, to serve as a premise or starting point for further reasoning and arguments.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axiom
Superiority Complex : an attitude of superiority which conceals actual feelings of inferiority and failure.
Note -- I don't often quote Freud as a philosophical or scientific position, but he was good at making memorable metaphors.
5657fbb1303ea6623d4e71c4792f7870.jpg
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussi ... ent/649987
So, I have this question: "Is there any meaning in talking about 'materialism' to materialists, since they can't see or think that there's anything else than matter, anyway?" That is, it is something self-evident for them. You can see this also as a paradox: "Materialism has no meaning for a materialist"! — Alkis Piskas
I agree. Self-evident axioms are a good starting point, but if not off-set by new input, they will go full circle, back to the original position, nothing learned.
An uncompromising materialist-physicalist seems to think of his worldview, not necessarily as Materialistic, but as Realistic. It's a Black versus White position, that makes no allowance for anything Idealistic or Non-empirical. Hence, their posting on a philosophy forum is not necessarily a search for Truth or Meaning, but for Superiority or Dominance. They may feel superior because they have Science on their side ; just as some aggressive Christians act condescending, because they have God on their side. Both prefer Assertion to Argument. For the haughty, two-way Philosophical dialog is for losers.
An axiom, postulate or assumption is a statement that is taken to be true, to serve as a premise or starting point for further reasoning and arguments.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axiom
Superiority Complex : an attitude of superiority which conceals actual feelings of inferiority and failure.
Note -- I don't often quote Freud as a philosophical or scientific position, but he was good at making memorable metaphors.
5657fbb1303ea6623d4e71c4792f7870.jpg
Re: TPF : Immaterialism
(some serious irony going on here, I must say... 180 is the one who "doesn't often hit you with a real argument"? You sure about that?) — Seppo
It may be ironic, but "science says" assertions are not arguments. They leave no room for dialog.
It may be ironic, but "science says" assertions are not arguments. They leave no room for dialog.
Re: TPF : Immaterialism
No. I'm implying that your either "material" or "immaterial" formulation is fallacious because "immaterial" is neither an intelligible nor a corroborable option compared to – negation of – the material. — 180 Proof
Since "immaterial" literally means "not made of matter", why is my conclusion that "material" and "immaterial" are categorical oppositions "un-intelligible"? I'm aware that materialists may prefer to define "immaterial" as "unimportant" or "irrelevant". However, that's not a literal meaning, but an antagonistic denigration. To use one of your favorite phrases, you are "cherry-picking" my words to suit your strategy of belittling what you don't like. Personally, I have no problem with your 19th century Materialism, because I can reconcile it with 21st century Information Theory. I dialog with you, not to convince you that I'm right and you're wrong, but to convince myself that my worldview can withstand attempts to suppress novel ideas with passionate put-downs.
Since my thesis uses that ambiguous term to describe the natural human mind, and its imaginary product (ideas), you are reading "supernatural" where my reference is to a natural phenomenon. You continue to miss the point of the Enformationism thesis: not to deny material reality, but to corroborate the old common-sense worldview of Materialism with the new paradigm paradoxes of Quantum Physics & Information Theory. Are non-local Entanglement & Quantum Tunneling & Acausal Events intelligible or sensible phemomena from a materialist perspective? Attempts to explain them away usually focus on the immaterial (mental) math instead of material (physical) substance.
My apologies to Einstein, God does play dice with the universe. And the consequences of that innate randomness made common-sense deterministic Classical Materialist Physics immaterial for the un-common-sense & Indeterminacy of the 21st century paradigm. Fortunately, Information Theory can ride to the rescue, by looking at both sides of a single coin.
Immaterial synonyms : intangible, incorporeal, not material, bodiless,
Also : transcendental, unearthly, supernatural.
On September 27, 1972, scientists performed the first test of Bell's inequality. God does play dice with the Universe, after all.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/startswith ... 20f2f17b05
Quantum Physics : Yes, physicists have said that it makes no sense. For example, Richard Feynman said “No one understands quantum mechanics” and Niels Bohr famously said, “Those who are not shocked when they first come across quantum theory cannot possibly have understood it.”
https://www.quora.com/Many-physicists-h ... make-sense
https://sebjaniak.com/acausal-information.html
↪Gnomon
If you really want to learn why your "immaterialist" speculations 'about information' (or "mind") is, at best, mere 'pseudo-science rationalized by bad philosophy', study Metzinger's work. . . . I'm confident you won't bother — 180 Proof
Why is Metzinger the sole authority on "immaterialist speculations"? If you really want to know what I mean by "Immaterial", study the Enformationism thesis, or any number of Information-centric studies. But I'm "confident you won't bother", because you are so invested in your outdated Classical interpretation of Physics. Yes, I'm mocking you with your own words. But I'm just kidding, because your old-fashioned belief system is "immaterial" to me, literally & figuratively.
Physics is the science of material Things & Forces. Things are Objects (nouns)
Metaphysics is the science of immaterial Non-Things such as Ideas, Concepts, Processes, & Universals. Non-things are Agents (subjects), Actions (verbs), or Categories (adverbs, adjectives).
BothAnd Glossary
PS___I prefer not to engage in mutual mud-slinging, so I consider this dialog as a harmless snow-ball fight, that we can laugh about.
Since "immaterial" literally means "not made of matter", why is my conclusion that "material" and "immaterial" are categorical oppositions "un-intelligible"? I'm aware that materialists may prefer to define "immaterial" as "unimportant" or "irrelevant". However, that's not a literal meaning, but an antagonistic denigration. To use one of your favorite phrases, you are "cherry-picking" my words to suit your strategy of belittling what you don't like. Personally, I have no problem with your 19th century Materialism, because I can reconcile it with 21st century Information Theory. I dialog with you, not to convince you that I'm right and you're wrong, but to convince myself that my worldview can withstand attempts to suppress novel ideas with passionate put-downs.
Since my thesis uses that ambiguous term to describe the natural human mind, and its imaginary product (ideas), you are reading "supernatural" where my reference is to a natural phenomenon. You continue to miss the point of the Enformationism thesis: not to deny material reality, but to corroborate the old common-sense worldview of Materialism with the new paradigm paradoxes of Quantum Physics & Information Theory. Are non-local Entanglement & Quantum Tunneling & Acausal Events intelligible or sensible phemomena from a materialist perspective? Attempts to explain them away usually focus on the immaterial (mental) math instead of material (physical) substance.
My apologies to Einstein, God does play dice with the universe. And the consequences of that innate randomness made common-sense deterministic Classical Materialist Physics immaterial for the un-common-sense & Indeterminacy of the 21st century paradigm. Fortunately, Information Theory can ride to the rescue, by looking at both sides of a single coin.
Immaterial synonyms : intangible, incorporeal, not material, bodiless,
Also : transcendental, unearthly, supernatural.
On September 27, 1972, scientists performed the first test of Bell's inequality. God does play dice with the Universe, after all.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/startswith ... 20f2f17b05
Quantum Physics : Yes, physicists have said that it makes no sense. For example, Richard Feynman said “No one understands quantum mechanics” and Niels Bohr famously said, “Those who are not shocked when they first come across quantum theory cannot possibly have understood it.”
https://www.quora.com/Many-physicists-h ... make-sense
https://sebjaniak.com/acausal-information.html
↪Gnomon
If you really want to learn why your "immaterialist" speculations 'about information' (or "mind") is, at best, mere 'pseudo-science rationalized by bad philosophy', study Metzinger's work. . . . I'm confident you won't bother — 180 Proof
Why is Metzinger the sole authority on "immaterialist speculations"? If you really want to know what I mean by "Immaterial", study the Enformationism thesis, or any number of Information-centric studies. But I'm "confident you won't bother", because you are so invested in your outdated Classical interpretation of Physics. Yes, I'm mocking you with your own words. But I'm just kidding, because your old-fashioned belief system is "immaterial" to me, literally & figuratively.
Physics is the science of material Things & Forces. Things are Objects (nouns)
Metaphysics is the science of immaterial Non-Things such as Ideas, Concepts, Processes, & Universals. Non-things are Agents (subjects), Actions (verbs), or Categories (adverbs, adjectives).
BothAnd Glossary
PS___I prefer not to engage in mutual mud-slinging, so I consider this dialog as a harmless snow-ball fight, that we can laugh about.
Re: TPF : Immaterialism
So is there an observer effect? I'm a math professor, not a physicist. I'm open to being proven wrong, but can you cite a source that is more than opinion? — Real Gone Cat
This surprising "effect" puzzled the pioneers of Quantum Physics, who had no common sense explanation. Since then, their interpretation has been debated by experts in the field, with no final resolution. So any "source" will necessarily be someone's "opinion".
My own understanding of how a machine can "observe" an experiment, is that it extracts information from the process. And that knowledge has meaning only for the human experimenter. When I get time, I'll try to find a source for that interpretation. It only makes sense though, if extracting Information is equivalent to extracting energy, hence affecting the chain of causation. And that's a whole 'nother debate. I don't take it as gospel, but it makes sense in view of my non-expert Enformationism thesis.
What is the Observer generated information process? :
Up to now both information and its connection to reality have not scientifically conclusive definitions neither implicit origin. They emerge in observing multiple impulses interactive yes-no actions modeling information Bits. The observed information process connects reality, information, and creates Observer.
https://arxiv.org/abs/1602.05129
https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1212/1212.1710.pdf
Note -- This technical report doesn't directly address your question. But it does imply that extracting bits of information (data ; meaning) is equivalent to extracting energy, thus having "real" effects. It's a negative impact on the measurement, similar to letting a bit of air out of a tire. But not necessarily like one billiard ball hitting another, for a positive impact. Extracting Information may be the "non-physical component" mentioned by Fernee.
This surprising "effect" puzzled the pioneers of Quantum Physics, who had no common sense explanation. Since then, their interpretation has been debated by experts in the field, with no final resolution. So any "source" will necessarily be someone's "opinion".
My own understanding of how a machine can "observe" an experiment, is that it extracts information from the process. And that knowledge has meaning only for the human experimenter. When I get time, I'll try to find a source for that interpretation. It only makes sense though, if extracting Information is equivalent to extracting energy, hence affecting the chain of causation. And that's a whole 'nother debate. I don't take it as gospel, but it makes sense in view of my non-expert Enformationism thesis.
What is the Observer generated information process? :
Up to now both information and its connection to reality have not scientifically conclusive definitions neither implicit origin. They emerge in observing multiple impulses interactive yes-no actions modeling information Bits. The observed information process connects reality, information, and creates Observer.
https://arxiv.org/abs/1602.05129
https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1212/1212.1710.pdf
Note -- This technical report doesn't directly address your question. But it does imply that extracting bits of information (data ; meaning) is equivalent to extracting energy, thus having "real" effects. It's a negative impact on the measurement, similar to letting a bit of air out of a tire. But not necessarily like one billiard ball hitting another, for a positive impact. Extracting Information may be the "non-physical component" mentioned by Fernee.
Re: TPF : Immaterialism
Since "immaterial" literally means "not made of matter" — Gnomon
Wouldn't it still be the stuff of something to be able to be? — PoeticUniverse
Yes. I call it "mind stuff"; otherwise known as Information. It's being is both Ideal (meaning) and Real (matter). Unfortunately. some on this forum have had a bad experience with religious damnation and New Age superstitions. So they lump all immaterial notions into the same category with ancient Spiritualism and New Age Mysticism. Such belief systems were reasonable back when gods & nature spirits were the best explanation for mysterious natural phenomena. But, today we have different words to explain those causal forces (e.g. Energy = power). And yet, Energy (kinetic ; mechanical) itself is not any concrete material "stuff". It's abstract & invisible & intangible, so we can only infer its existence from its effects (changes in material things). But scientists still don't know any more about what it is (its being), than the ancients, who inferred whimsical invisible personas making things move. Their poetic & romantic worldview is understandable in view of their limited technological knowledge. But it was logical, for the time.
However, the unromantic Greek philosophers saw no reason to infer personal intention (spirits) behind causation. So, they used more abstract terms, such as "Potential" & "Logos" to label those creative & organizing forces. My own information-based worldview combines the insights of the ancients with the empirical evidence of the moderns. And Information Theory is able to bridge the gap between Spiritualism and Materialism with a more mathematical terminology for invisible causes. One of those is "Ratio", which is the essential causal force of Thermodynamics (ratio of hot to cold). But that term is also the root of "Rational" which refers to mental processes (reasoning) rather than to any tangible stuff. Moreover, all mental abstractions (ideas, concepts) are stripped of their physical "stuff", so their being is literally "immaterial" & meta-physical (or preter-natural, if the "meta" term offends you).
Since "stuff" is an indeterminate label for the substance or essence of something, Realists & Pragmatists think of it as Matter, while Idealists & Theorists may imagine it as Mind. For example, some mathematical theorists have concluded that the basic stuff of the world is invisible loops of energy in an esoteric hyper-dimensional space. Since those different perspectives are often viewed as polar opposites, I tend to compromise with what's known as Pragmatic Idealism. I didn't make that up, but it seems to fit my Holistic BothAnd worldview.
PS___This and other similar threads tend to quickly entropy (verb) from a search for Consilience via intellectual philosophical dialog into an emotional ideological debate. That's not philosophy, it's politics. My position is unaligned & moderate, but the man in the middle gets caught in the crossfire. So I try to take my pummeling with good humor, while standing my middle ground.
Pragmatic Idealism :
This term sounds like an oxymoron, combining practical realism with otherworldly fantasy. But together they describe the BothAnd attitude toward the contingencies of the world. Pragmatic Idealism is a holistic worldview, grounded upon our sensory experience with, and knowledge of, how the mundane world works, plus how Reality & Ideality work together to make a single whole. As a personal philosophy, it does not replace scientific Realism — and doesn't endorse fantasies of magic, miracles & monsters — because every thing or fact in the “real” parts of the world is subject to logical validation or empirical testing prior to belief.
BothAnd Blog Glossary
Pragmatic Idealism : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Practical_idealism
Consilience : agreement between the approaches to a topic of different academic subjects, especially science and the humanities.
NO MIDDLE GROUND FOR POLARIZED POLITICS
https://sloanreview.mit.edu/wp-content/ ... p-1200.jpg
Wouldn't it still be the stuff of something to be able to be? — PoeticUniverse
Yes. I call it "mind stuff"; otherwise known as Information. It's being is both Ideal (meaning) and Real (matter). Unfortunately. some on this forum have had a bad experience with religious damnation and New Age superstitions. So they lump all immaterial notions into the same category with ancient Spiritualism and New Age Mysticism. Such belief systems were reasonable back when gods & nature spirits were the best explanation for mysterious natural phenomena. But, today we have different words to explain those causal forces (e.g. Energy = power). And yet, Energy (kinetic ; mechanical) itself is not any concrete material "stuff". It's abstract & invisible & intangible, so we can only infer its existence from its effects (changes in material things). But scientists still don't know any more about what it is (its being), than the ancients, who inferred whimsical invisible personas making things move. Their poetic & romantic worldview is understandable in view of their limited technological knowledge. But it was logical, for the time.
However, the unromantic Greek philosophers saw no reason to infer personal intention (spirits) behind causation. So, they used more abstract terms, such as "Potential" & "Logos" to label those creative & organizing forces. My own information-based worldview combines the insights of the ancients with the empirical evidence of the moderns. And Information Theory is able to bridge the gap between Spiritualism and Materialism with a more mathematical terminology for invisible causes. One of those is "Ratio", which is the essential causal force of Thermodynamics (ratio of hot to cold). But that term is also the root of "Rational" which refers to mental processes (reasoning) rather than to any tangible stuff. Moreover, all mental abstractions (ideas, concepts) are stripped of their physical "stuff", so their being is literally "immaterial" & meta-physical (or preter-natural, if the "meta" term offends you).
Since "stuff" is an indeterminate label for the substance or essence of something, Realists & Pragmatists think of it as Matter, while Idealists & Theorists may imagine it as Mind. For example, some mathematical theorists have concluded that the basic stuff of the world is invisible loops of energy in an esoteric hyper-dimensional space. Since those different perspectives are often viewed as polar opposites, I tend to compromise with what's known as Pragmatic Idealism. I didn't make that up, but it seems to fit my Holistic BothAnd worldview.
PS___This and other similar threads tend to quickly entropy (verb) from a search for Consilience via intellectual philosophical dialog into an emotional ideological debate. That's not philosophy, it's politics. My position is unaligned & moderate, but the man in the middle gets caught in the crossfire. So I try to take my pummeling with good humor, while standing my middle ground.
Pragmatic Idealism :
This term sounds like an oxymoron, combining practical realism with otherworldly fantasy. But together they describe the BothAnd attitude toward the contingencies of the world. Pragmatic Idealism is a holistic worldview, grounded upon our sensory experience with, and knowledge of, how the mundane world works, plus how Reality & Ideality work together to make a single whole. As a personal philosophy, it does not replace scientific Realism — and doesn't endorse fantasies of magic, miracles & monsters — because every thing or fact in the “real” parts of the world is subject to logical validation or empirical testing prior to belief.
BothAnd Blog Glossary
Pragmatic Idealism : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Practical_idealism
Consilience : agreement between the approaches to a topic of different academic subjects, especially science and the humanities.
NO MIDDLE GROUND FOR POLARIZED POLITICS
https://sloanreview.mit.edu/wp-content/ ... p-1200.jpg
Re: TPF : Immaterialism
I'll take it as something. The word 'immaterial' doesn't seem to be doing any work. It's like 'unstuff' that is still stuff.
Since the universe has atoms, 'mind' would be of atoms. — PoeticUniverse
I've never heard of "mind atoms" before. So I Googled it, and sure enough there is such a hypothesis. But my gist of the articles is that they are actually talking about a computer Brain, not a meaning manipulating Mind. Anyway, from my Information-centric viewpoint, the atom of Mind would be a Bit of Information (meaning), not a spec of carbon (matter).
A brain or computer is indeed a processor of information, but only a sentient Mind can extract meaning from the passing patterns of data. Our different understanding of what constitutes a Mind was articulated by Searle's Chinese Room thought experiment. Until AI robots become philosophers, which interpretation is correct remains a matter of opinion.
Atoms of Mind :
A network of interconnected atoms could be used to construct a “quantum brain”
https://physicsworld.com/a/interconnect ... tum-brain/
Chinese Room :
Searle argues that, without "understanding" (or "intentionality"), we cannot describe what the machine is doing as "thinking" and, since it does not think, it does not have a "mind" in anything like the normal sense of the word. Therefore, he concludes that the "strong AI" hypothesis is false.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_room
Intention (purpose) :
In human cultures, we can easily distinguish the works of Nature from the products of human intention. That's because Nature is on auto-pilot, while humans have hands on the wheel.
BothAnd Blog, post 14
Note -- computers inherit their intention, purpose, goal from the Programmer, not from a confluence of atoms or electrons.
Since the universe has atoms, 'mind' would be of atoms. — PoeticUniverse
I've never heard of "mind atoms" before. So I Googled it, and sure enough there is such a hypothesis. But my gist of the articles is that they are actually talking about a computer Brain, not a meaning manipulating Mind. Anyway, from my Information-centric viewpoint, the atom of Mind would be a Bit of Information (meaning), not a spec of carbon (matter).
A brain or computer is indeed a processor of information, but only a sentient Mind can extract meaning from the passing patterns of data. Our different understanding of what constitutes a Mind was articulated by Searle's Chinese Room thought experiment. Until AI robots become philosophers, which interpretation is correct remains a matter of opinion.
Atoms of Mind :
A network of interconnected atoms could be used to construct a “quantum brain”
https://physicsworld.com/a/interconnect ... tum-brain/
Chinese Room :
Searle argues that, without "understanding" (or "intentionality"), we cannot describe what the machine is doing as "thinking" and, since it does not think, it does not have a "mind" in anything like the normal sense of the word. Therefore, he concludes that the "strong AI" hypothesis is false.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_room
Intention (purpose) :
In human cultures, we can easily distinguish the works of Nature from the products of human intention. That's because Nature is on auto-pilot, while humans have hands on the wheel.
BothAnd Blog, post 14
Note -- computers inherit their intention, purpose, goal from the Programmer, not from a confluence of atoms or electrons.
Re: TPF : Immaterialism
As pointed out by others, "vulgar materialism" (stipulated here ↪180 Proof) isn't a position any significant philosopher or scientist has held in over a century, so your anti-naturalistic, dualist-idealist opposition pathetically pushes only an open door. — 180 Proof
As usual, you are way ahead of me in your mindfulness of scholarly disputations. Since I have no formal training in philosophy, I am not familiar with the abstruse technicalities of genteel postulators. And I don't spend my time trying to keep up on the latest fashion in Matter-over-Mind "metaphysical" theories.
So, rather than directing me to "study" another abstruse academic book, perhaps you could give me a quick summary of "non-vulgar" Materialism, as it relates to this thread. Specifically, I'd like to know how Meaning can be inferred from processing Matter. Reminds me of the scrambled pig brains, my father once required me to eat.
Vulgar Materialism :
a tendency of mid-19th century bourgeois philosophy that came into being at the same time as the great discoveries in the natural sciences of the century.
https://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary ... aterialism
Varieties of Materialisms :
"The word materialism has been used in modern times to refer to a family of metaphysical theories"
Mechanical materialism ; physicalistic materialism ; emergent materialism ; double-aspect materialism ; dialectical materialism, . . . .
https://www.britannica.com/topic/materialism-philosophy
Note -- I'm not sure which of these is "vulgar" and which is elite.
One can be any flavor of "vulgar materialist" (A); one can commit to neither the "philosophical" nor "methodological" position (B); one can be committed to either position and not the other (C1/2); or one can be committed to both positions (D). My own commitments, if you haven't guessed already, are most compatible with (D). — 180 Proof
That sounds similar to my own BothAnd position, which takes a complementary view of apparent oppositions.
As usual, you are way ahead of me in your mindfulness of scholarly disputations. Since I have no formal training in philosophy, I am not familiar with the abstruse technicalities of genteel postulators. And I don't spend my time trying to keep up on the latest fashion in Matter-over-Mind "metaphysical" theories.
So, rather than directing me to "study" another abstruse academic book, perhaps you could give me a quick summary of "non-vulgar" Materialism, as it relates to this thread. Specifically, I'd like to know how Meaning can be inferred from processing Matter. Reminds me of the scrambled pig brains, my father once required me to eat.
Vulgar Materialism :
a tendency of mid-19th century bourgeois philosophy that came into being at the same time as the great discoveries in the natural sciences of the century.
https://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary ... aterialism
Varieties of Materialisms :
"The word materialism has been used in modern times to refer to a family of metaphysical theories"
Mechanical materialism ; physicalistic materialism ; emergent materialism ; double-aspect materialism ; dialectical materialism, . . . .
https://www.britannica.com/topic/materialism-philosophy
Note -- I'm not sure which of these is "vulgar" and which is elite.
One can be any flavor of "vulgar materialist" (A); one can commit to neither the "philosophical" nor "methodological" position (B); one can be committed to either position and not the other (C1/2); or one can be committed to both positions (D). My own commitments, if you haven't guessed already, are most compatible with (D). — 180 Proof
That sounds similar to my own BothAnd position, which takes a complementary view of apparent oppositions.
Re: TPF : Immaterialism
More accurately, the universe is made of quanta; that definition covers more than atoms. So, anyway, all that forms is of quanta. — PoeticUniverse
More accurately, the physical space-time universe is quantifiable. But that definition doesn't cover the Qualia by which we quantify (evaluate). I just happened to receive this excerpted Quora Forum update today. It makes the formerly heretical assertion of an immaterial Platonic "world" that is not quantifiable in terms of space-time measurements. Of course, theoretical mathematicians are more likely to accept Platonism as "true" than empirical physicists.
Both Plato and Aristotle made a distinction between specific quantifiable things and general definitive Forms, that are knowable by Reason, but immeasurable by counting. So, maybe you meant to say "all space-occupying physical objects are made of Quarks". I prefer to distinguish the essential "Form" (Platonic) from the superficial physical "Shape". The Form of a thing is its mathematical structure, or general category. It does not exist in space-time, but in the imagination of a Mind.
Some mathematical theoreticians postulate that the universe is a Quantum Computer. But the data being processed are not physical things, but mathematical values. And values are meanings that exist only in meta-physical minds. Relative values are not empirical physical facts but attributed mental meanings.
What does not need space or time to exist? :
But there’s another “world” out there, with independently discoverable things in it: The Platonic world of mathematical truths. Things in mathematics: the decimal digits of pi, the properties of algebraic equations, the relationship between the sides of a triangle, etc., are all independently discoverable, so arguably, they “exist”; but their existence is entirely independent of space and time, as they are tied to neither location nor moment in time. ___Victor Toth, resident Quora expert on Physics
https://www.quora.com/What-does-not-nee ... ype=answer
Form :
1. the visible shape or configuration of something.
2. a type or kind of thing
3. the essential nature of a thing as distinguished from its matter
Quarks :
1. "Well, I think the simplest way of stating it is that quarks are the fundamental constituent of matter, of all the stuff that's around us," .
2. Quarks are particles that are not only hard to see, but pretty much impossible to measure.
3. At the scale we are talking about here, there are no particles. There are only quantum fields.
4. it's not possible to measure the value of quantum fields at any point in space. This is because quantum fields are not in spacetime
___excerpts from various sources
More accurately, the physical space-time universe is quantifiable. But that definition doesn't cover the Qualia by which we quantify (evaluate). I just happened to receive this excerpted Quora Forum update today. It makes the formerly heretical assertion of an immaterial Platonic "world" that is not quantifiable in terms of space-time measurements. Of course, theoretical mathematicians are more likely to accept Platonism as "true" than empirical physicists.
Both Plato and Aristotle made a distinction between specific quantifiable things and general definitive Forms, that are knowable by Reason, but immeasurable by counting. So, maybe you meant to say "all space-occupying physical objects are made of Quarks". I prefer to distinguish the essential "Form" (Platonic) from the superficial physical "Shape". The Form of a thing is its mathematical structure, or general category. It does not exist in space-time, but in the imagination of a Mind.
Some mathematical theoreticians postulate that the universe is a Quantum Computer. But the data being processed are not physical things, but mathematical values. And values are meanings that exist only in meta-physical minds. Relative values are not empirical physical facts but attributed mental meanings.
What does not need space or time to exist? :
But there’s another “world” out there, with independently discoverable things in it: The Platonic world of mathematical truths. Things in mathematics: the decimal digits of pi, the properties of algebraic equations, the relationship between the sides of a triangle, etc., are all independently discoverable, so arguably, they “exist”; but their existence is entirely independent of space and time, as they are tied to neither location nor moment in time. ___Victor Toth, resident Quora expert on Physics
https://www.quora.com/What-does-not-nee ... ype=answer
Form :
1. the visible shape or configuration of something.
2. a type or kind of thing
3. the essential nature of a thing as distinguished from its matter
Quarks :
1. "Well, I think the simplest way of stating it is that quarks are the fundamental constituent of matter, of all the stuff that's around us," .
2. Quarks are particles that are not only hard to see, but pretty much impossible to measure.
3. At the scale we are talking about here, there are no particles. There are only quantum fields.
4. it's not possible to measure the value of quantum fields at any point in space. This is because quantum fields are not in spacetime
___excerpts from various sources
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