Phil Forum : Why Philosophy? off-topic

A place for discussion of ideas presented in the BothAndBlog, or relevant to the Enformationism thesis.
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Re: Phil Forum : Enformationism _ Why Philosophy off-topic

Post by Gnomon » Tue May 05, 2020 12:10 pm

https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussi ... we-here/p4

Again, if something is both A and B, what difference does it make if you call it A or B? — praxis

"You keep asking the same question and expecting a different result". — praxis

OK, here's the same answer in a different Form : A coin has two sides : Heads or Tails. What difference does it make if you call the Tail side the Head? it's still the same coin, but if you flip it and claim it came down Heads, when it's actually Tails, you'll be accused of cheating. Although both sides belong to the same coin, there is a meaningful difference between the sides. The difference is in the distinction between Parts and Wholes. The coin is both A> Heads and B> Tails. I assume "Holism" is not in your vocabulary. :yum:

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Re: Phil Forum : Enformationism _ Why Philosophy off-topic

Post by Gnomon » Tue May 05, 2020 12:13 pm

https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussi ... we-here/p4

He makes a distinction between "physical substance and metaphysical Information." — praxis

Yes. Information is both metaphysical mind-stuff, and physical material stuff. Information is the "Single Substance" of Spinoza's worldview. That's the novel notion that I call Enformationism. If you don't believe me, I have lots of scientific documentation in my boring "weird" thesis. :nerd:

PS__The Brain is Physical information, but the Mind is Metaphysical information. Information is that which gives meaning or useful Form to objects and subjects.

Ideas, Ideals, Principles
: "Metaphysics is about things that do not change"
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/metaphysics/

Metaphysical : relating to the part of philosophy that is about understanding existence and knowledge

Metaphysical : Derived from the Greek meta ta physika ("after the things of nature"); referring to an idea, doctrine, or posited reality outside of human sense perception. In modern philosophical terminology, metaphysics refers to the studies of what cannot be reached through objective studies of material reality.
https://www.pbs.org/faithandreason/geng ... -body.html

Information
: The conceptual problem here is that the idea of “information” makes sense only in the context of an observer for whom something out there, in the indiscriminate jumble of the world, counts as information. Before life exists, there cannot be any such thing as information.
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2019/ ... ies-review

PPS__A physical quantum particle, in a state of superposition, has no physical properties, such as velocity and location. It can be described only as a mathematical formula. The superposed state is virtual, not real. A "virtual" particle is nothing but mathematical Information. It exists only in essence, in potential, not in physical presence.

Virtual
: The adjective "virtual" is used to describe something that exists in essence but not in actuality.

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Re: Phil Forum : Enformationism _ Why Philosophy off-topic

Post by Gnomon » Tue May 05, 2020 12:15 pm

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It appears to me you're claiming that information is a component of information. Is this the weird (inexplicable) part you keep mentioning? — praxis

No. All things and ideas about things are components of (or consist of) Information : the Single Substance of the physical (material) and metaphysical (mental) world. :nerd:

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Re: Phil Forum : Enformationism _ Why Philosophy off-topic

Post by Gnomon » Thu May 07, 2020 3:59 pm

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If the latter doesn't work, why doesn't it work? — praxis

Because "X" is the same in both equations. Your logic is based on scientific Reductionism, while mine is based on philosophical Holism.

Science studies what Aristotle called "Physics" (Natural Philosophy). Physics is anything we can detect with our bodily senses, which are tuned to quantum inputs of Energy (bits & bytes). Metaphysics is anything we know via our mental senses, which are tuned to holistic inputs of subjective Meaning (ideas & feelings). Physics is objective, only because it's easier to compare our material sensations, than to share our subjective mental sensations. What you "feel" is a ghost, I may "sense" as merely a light reflection. The difference is what it means to you.

But ultimately, the source of all that information comes from beyond the physical space-time world that began with a bang. In my thesis, the timeless-spaceless Enformer is presumed to be un-real, consisting only of Potential, the power to create actual things. This is not based on empirical evidence, but from reasoning backwards into the "pre-time" before space-time. A materialist might call this undetectable Prime Cause "The Multiverse", but I call it "G*D". Conceptually, G*D is closer to Hindu Brahman, than to Hebrew Yahweh.

I propose holistic G*D, rather than particularistic Multiverse, to serve as an unprovable Axiom upon which my Pragmatic here & now worldview is based. But, hey, it's just a theory! You don't have to believe it, unless it makes sense to you. :nerd:


Holism : the theory that parts of a whole are in intimate interconnection, such that they cannot exist independently of the whole, or cannot be understood without reference to the whole, which is thus regarded as greater than the sum of its parts. Holism is often applied to mental states, language, and ecology.

Brahman
: Brahman as a metaphysical concept is the single binding unity behind diversity in all that exists in the universe
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahman

Axiom : a statement or proposition on which an abstractly defined structure is based.

Information :
# Claude Shannon quantified Information not as useful ideas, but as a mathematical ratio between meaningful order (1) and meaningless disorder (0); between knowledge (1) and ignorance (0). So, that meaningful mind-stuff exists in the limbo-land of statistics, producing effects on reality while having no sensory physical properties. We know it exists ideally, only by detecting its effects in the real world.
# For humans, Information has the semantic quality of "aboutness", that we interpret as meaning. In computer science though, Information is treated as meaningless, which makes its mathematical value more certain. It becomes meaningful only when a sentient Self interprets it as such.
# When spelled with an “I”, Information is a noun, referring to data & things. When spelled with an “E”, Enformation is a verb, referring to energy and processes.

http://blog-glossary.enformationism.info/page11.html

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Re: Phil Forum : Enformationism _ Why Philosophy off-topic

Post by Gnomon » Thu May 07, 2020 4:01 pm

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I would say that isn’t even close to what Shannon’s work was about. Looks like you’ve had an idea and attached a famous name to it for inexplicable reasons. — I like sushi

The quoted definition of "Information" is based on my personal worldview of Enformationism, not on any conventional scientific paradigm. But here's another opinion from a different perspective.

Shannon Information : "Roughly speaking, Shannon entropy is concerned with the statistical properties of a given system and the correlations between the states of two systems, independently of the meaning and any semantic content of those states."
http://philsci-archive.pitt.edu/10911/1 ... mation.pdf

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Re: Phil Forum : Enformationism _ Why Philosophy off-topic

Post by Gnomon » Thu May 07, 2020 4:04 pm

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Remove his name then because his paper has nothing to do with some ‘knowledge’ and ‘ignorance’ - just makes it look like pseudoscience. — I like sushi

Obviously, you have missed the point of my thesis, which is to go beyond Shannon's limited theory of Information toward a general theory (e.g. Newton's theory of gravitation was a special case of Einstein's general theory of relativity.). It may sound New Agey to you, but it's not. Merely unfamiliar, and strange --- like Quantum Theory. Are Virtual Particles pseudoscience, just because you can't measure them?

Shannon's theory is indeed scientific and physical, while mine is philosophical and metaphysical. And it's not just me : Paul Davies is a prominent physicist and cosmologist, whose use of Information as the fundamental "stuff" of the universe is amenable to mine. Also, Howard Bloom, a certified genius and Omnologist (look it up) is also coming to the same conclusion : that everything, including Mind & Matter is essentially Information. If you don't like my version of Enformationism, check out theirs. If you don't like any such far-out notions, then just fuget-about-it. :joke:


The God Problem : Bloom’s understanding of a creative universe is based on Information Theory, but not Shannon’s meaningless 1s & 0s. According to the entropy definition of Information, “everything must tend toward chaos.” But, since the cosmos is heading in the opposite direction, the author looked for a different kind of constructive creative Information. He found it in “the act of informing”, or as I call it EnFormAction. Although Information is related to positive working Energy, there is a distinction : pure energy may be merely transmitted — throughput — while Meaning must be interpreted, relative to some perspective. Like energy, raw information is binary, either positive or negative, attractive or repulsive. Everything else is a variation on that (+ or -) duality, except for meaningful information, which ranges between the polar oppositions. It’s “relational”, and has the quality of “aboutness”. Since Meaning requires a function or application or usefulness, it also requires consciousness of relationships. Bloom says “then the amount of meaning in this cosmos is constantly increasing. Meaning defies the law of entropy.” Likewise, the “quantity” of consciousness is growing, as inter-relationships become more complex and organized.
http://bothandblog6.enformationism.info/page43.html

Omnology : https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Omnology

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Re: Phil Forum : Enformationism _ Why Philosophy off-topic

Post by Gnomon » Thu May 07, 2020 4:06 pm

Rather, you seem to favor idealism for some inexplicable (what you would call weird) reason. I guess because you think that it's somehow more holistic. — praxis

I favor Idealism for the same reason Plato did : it makes sense of human Consciousness. I favor Realism, for the same reason Aristotle did : It makes pragmatic Science possible. I favor Holism for the same reason Jan Smuts did : it gives us an elevated perspective on the world. If you prefer Parts to Wholes, that's OK. Just keep looking at the shiny stars, and ignore the mind-boggling Cosmos. :joke:

Holism : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holism

Jan Smuts : South African statesman, military leader, and philosopher.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Smuts

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Re: Phil Forum : Enformationism _ Why Philosophy off-topic

Post by Gnomon » Thu May 07, 2020 4:08 pm

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I favor Idealism... I favor Realism... I favor Holism... Just keep looking at the shiny stars — Gnomon
Indeed.
— praxis

I just read an article in Skeptical Inquirer magazine*, that reminded me of your incredulous attitude toward my "weird" ideas. The title is The Nobel Disease : Why Intelligent Scientists Go Weird. The article describes "the tendency of many Nobel winners to embrace scientifically questionable ideas". It goes on to note, "because merely entertaining the possibility of an unsupported claim, such as the existence of extrasensory perception, does not indicate a critical thinking lapse, we focus on Nobelists who clung to one or more weird idea with considerable conviction". One of those weird ideas may well be the next Relativity or Quantum theory.

Apparently, one talent that allows creative thinking is the ability to "entertain possibilities" that others say is impossible. I'm not a candidate for the Nobel, but some of the scientists who embrace the new notion of Information, such as Cosmologist Paul Davies, may well be. Anyway, if my ideas about Idealism are weird, I'm in good company. In my thesis, I'm "merely entertaining" the possibility that the post-Shannon Information theories may explain the "hard Problem" of Consciousness, among other weird aspects of the real world. :nerd:

* Yes, I have subscribed to Skeptical Inquirer and SKEPTIC magazines for over 40 years. And I have read Michael Shermer's book, Why Smart People Believe Weird Things. So, I know a little about how to distinguish between weird ideas and innovative ideas.

Paul Davies : http://bothandblog6.enformationism.info/page6.html

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Re: Phil Forum : Enformationism _ Why Philosophy off-topic

Post by Gnomon » Thu May 07, 2020 4:18 pm

https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussi ... we-here/p5

The only thing that seems kind of sketchy to me about your approach is the neologisms and kind of... style, and terminology... that makes it seem like this is some "crazy" new thing you came up with all by yourself -- and maybe you did a lot of it, which is fine and plausible, but it could put off a lot of people who might just dismiss this as some loony ramblings. It kind of sucks to say but I imagine if you tried to use fewer neologisms and more standard terminology, reference existing work in the same vein wherever possible, explain the things that have already been explored, and then note your own variations or additions on top of that, I think it would "sell" (figuratively speaking) a lot better. — Pfhorrest

If you would do more than skim the thesis, you'd discover that I do "reference existing work" in sidebars, end notes, and bibliographies. The only "new thing" I take credit for is the concept of Enformationism as an update for the outdated paradigms of "Spiritualism" and "Materialism".

The neologisms are necessary because the thesis overturns popular paradigms of Religion and Science. So it uses a lot of old concepts, "standard terminology", that take on new meanings in the Information Age. For example, "information" used to refer to mind-stuff. The kind of immaterial stuff that spies would risk their lives to bring back to Intelligence Agencies. But today, most people use the term in reference to the digital "1s & 0s" that fast-but-dumb computers process. The new trend in Information Theory is to return to the old analog information processing of human minds, and to redefine obsolete terms, such as "Soul" and "Metaphysics".

The links in my posts, which few bother to look at, are intended to show that my "crazy, looney" ideas are shared by many other scientists and philosophers. Unfortunately for me, "looney" New Agers were the first to adopt the new implications of Information and Quantum Theories, and to find their roots in ancient religions, such as Buddhism and Hinduism. The notion that Information, rather than Matter, is the fundamental substance of the world is an old idea (Plato's Forms), but it is being adopted by a growing number of modern scientists and philosophers (who are credited in numerous links and notes).

I am not bothered by the incredulity of some forum posters. Even paradigm-busting Einstein "refused to believe in the inherent unpredictability of the world. Is the subatomic world insane, or just subtle?" [ https://www.quantamagazine.org/einstein ... -20150910/ ] I take their criticisms in stride, and use them to make my thesis stronger. But, since I am neither a scientist nor a philosopher, it will always be my personal worldview. For the broader world, it will take on a variety of forms that are beyond my power to control. B-)


Neologisms : But the primary reason for using a special label for a technical definition is so the writer can control its meaning precisely.
http://bothandblog4.enformationism.info/page6.html
http://blog-glossary.enformationism.info/page19.html

Enformationism Welcome Page : This informal thesis does not present any new scientific evidence, or novel philosophical analysis. It merely suggests a new perspective on an old enigma : what is reality? . . . . I am neither a scientist, nor a philosopher, so the arguments herein carry no more authority or expertise than those of anyone else with an interest in such impractical musings. This is intended to be an open-ended thread, because it’s a relatively new and unproven concept, and because the ideas presented here are merely a superficial snapshot of what promises to be a whole new way of understanding the world : philosophically, scientifically, and religiously.

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Re: Phil Forum : Enformationism _ Why Philosophy off-topic

Post by Gnomon » Thu May 07, 2020 5:04 pm

https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussi ... we-here/p5

I’m not really that interested in your ‘thesis’. I was just pointing out that it looked very much like you equated whatever your or someone else’s idea of ‘information’ was to what Shannon was doing. In the text you posted there was no well-defined line between Shannon’s ‘information’ and yours. — I like sushi

Yes. My Enformationism theory may be too technical & cutting-edge for the average reader --- limited by holding an outdated scientific paradigm (e.g Classical vs Quantum Physics). The thesis repeatedly states that it is not to be "equated" with Shannon theory, but is a different kind of theory, with a different application : fuzzy-logic people instead of digital-logic machines.

I appreciate the hint that my usage of the term "Information" could be misconstrued as a perversion of Claude Shannon's theory. But I view Enformationism as an expansion of that theory. Whereas, for telephone transmissions, Shannon converted analog mental information (words) into digital robot/computer information (bits & bytes), my thesis observes that some far-sighted scientists are beginning to look more closely at the original form of Intelligence : the Natural kind. Any successful Artificial Intelligence --- quantum computers perhaps --- must adopt analog methods. Maybe Shannon is the pervert.

Whereas Shannon converted analog human ideas into two-value Boolean logic, in order to reduce it to a simple-invariable-certain form that dumb machines could process, the new era of Information theory uses multi-value Fuzzy Logic, which is more like human reasoning, and deals with degrees of uncertainty. Digital information uses either/or logic, where values are limited to 1s or 0s, nothing in between. Analog information uses all values (infinite) between 1 & 0. This is replicated in Quantum Computers, where the state of Superposition covers all possible values for a Virtual particle. In other words, there is "no well-defined line" between 1 & 0, it's a continuum. :nerd:


Shannon vs Boltzman Information : Therefore, in this article we use the concept of entropy only for macroscopic equilibrium systems, while the SMI may be used for any system.
https://www.mdpi.com/1099-4300/19/2/48/htm
SMI : Shannon Measure of Information (objective)

Macroscopic Equilibrium Systems : includes subjective human reasoning

Analog Thinking : So the next time you think about any issue or topic, pause to consider what thinking paradigm you are adopting. Can you deliberately let go thinking in categories and frameworks and focus on understanding the situation as it is? And can you in particular consider carefully the merits of opinions you don’t agree with and the opinions that come from people you dislike?
https://medium.com/@hsabnis/digital-vs- ... 45bd1993ed

Fuzzy Logic : a form of many-valued logic in which the truth values of variables may be any real number between 0 and 1 both inclusive.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuzzy_logic

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