Phil forum : Off-topic -- The Fifth Dimension

[Gnomon]

I've interpreted what Possibility has written about it to be like a dimension of measurement, if that makes sense. Affect is a dimension like depth is a dimension. There is depth information available to perception as there is affect information available to perception. Make sense? — praxis

An Effect is a physical change. To Affect, is to make a difference emotionally. For psychologists, "Affect" is how inner emotions are displayed in outward behavior. I can understand that emotional feelings are metaphorically similar to the feeling of Touch, by which we "measure" physical things. And all personal meanings are ultimately feelings.

Unfortunately, my personal Affect is rather flat. I don't have strong emotional swings. That's not a sign of depression, but of a stable happy-go-lucky temperament. I am by nature rather Buddha-like in the sense of a peaceful state of mind. I suppose that's why my general mood seems rather two-dimensional to more emotionally volatile people. Anyway, I've never experienced anything I'd call "Enlightenment". I suppose the closest I've come to that deep insight was when I realized that mental Information is the essence of everything in the world. The Effect of that intuition was to give me a foundation for my personal worldview. It was more of an intellectual "awakening" than a spiritual transformation, though.

What would it take for me to experience the Fifth Dimension stage of enlightenment? Mystics seem to be innately tuned for such a state. Others use drugs, or mediate to "lift" their vibrations. But, since my normal state, as an introvert, is basically meditative, whatever vibrations I may have resonate only in the usual four dimensions.

Can you give some examples of "depth information" you have obtained from forays into the higher dimensions?

Aaron Doughty : spiritual advisor -- "calibrate your vibrations"
https://aarondoughty.com/

5th Dimension : Let’s consider, why would somebody living in this amazing Age of Awakening try to leave it. Really, leave it by “lifting your vibrations.” In short, “upgrade” your awareness away from how humans are built to experience life:
If your wish is to not have to deal with everyday human problems.
Or should you desire to develop kinds of intelligence more like spirits than like humans.
Maybe even dream of becoming the ultimate human. So vastly superior to hairy, smelly, confused human beings!
https://www.rose-rosetree.com/blog/2020 ... s-warning/

[Gnomon]

Yes, thanks, but not really novel, nor a paradigm buster. — 3017amen

I wasn't talking about a Spiritual paradigm, but a Scientific paradigm. But Enformationism is also a religious paradigm-buster, at least compared to the fundamentalist Christian worldview of my youth.

[Gnomon]

As a favor, I'm offering a critique of your Glossary Page. Maybe I missed it , but why did you not include Time? — 3017amen

I discuss the notion of Time in many blog posts. But at the time I was writing the Enformationism thesis, it wasn't a big issue.

Let me know if you see any more omissions. I'm currently working on an addendum to the Glossary.

[Gnomon]

Here, this might help (with respect to your Glossary/Time): — 3017amen

One topic, relevant to time, that I discuss at length in the blog, is the concept of Timelessness. One of my favorite neologisms is "Enfernity" (Infinity & eternity), which encapsulates my understanding that the state from which space-time emerged was unitary and formless : nothing measurable, except in terms of Mathematical and Logical relationships.


Time & Purpose : It can be said that the world of mathematics exists in an eternal present, a state in which neither the past nor the future have any meaning
http://www.torahscience.org/mathematics/time1.html

[Gnomon]

I don’t think either of us are talking about actual real things here. We’re talking about information. — Possibility

I wasn't asking about the definition of a "real" thing. I was requesting a succinct definition of your concept of whatever kind of "thing" these extra dimensions are. Without some kind of defining mental image, I am at a loss to know what you are talking about. Physically, space is emptiness that can be filled with something sensible and measurable. What kind of "things" are filling these extra empty containers? Praxis offered a couple of examples : "fifth (personal conditioning) and sixth (shared cultural conditioning) dimensions". But I don't grasp how the processes of adapting personal and cultural beliefs can be localized to specific places in "mind space".

Those metaphysical "dimensions" sound like the spiritual language of heaven & hell (imagined as real places) but translated into sciencey sounding modern terminology. They are spatial metaphors intended to allow us to imagine unreal "things" as-if they are real. Spiritual leaders have always used such physical imagery to convey metaphysical concepts. And they typically imply some causal connection (spiritual energies) from human minds to those abstract places in Mind-Space. This spiritual "mechanism" gives the impression that we can gain leverage over occult forces that bedevil us. But humans have typically relied on specialist Shamans to operate the spiritual system.

PS__My questions are not directed toward distinguishing "real" things from "ideal" concepts, but to discern "factual" from "fictional". For example : Time is generally accepted as an objective fact, but people's notions of that fact vary. Some think of Time flowing like a river, but Einstein pictured Time as a static block. Which metaphor is true? Depends on what kind of truth you're looking for. We all experience Change, but that simple fact has inspired all kinds of stories about change, from Fatalism or Destiny to Opportunity and Possibility. I'm looking for a Time story that is useful for my needs, which are mostly pragmatic instead of emotional.

No - the fifth dimension is not located IN space-time. — Possibility

I get that. But what kind of stuff is figuratively "located" in those multiple dimensions? How do we detect those "containers", and how can we differentiate one dimension from another? Are alternate forms of consciousness (drugs, meditation) required to access those dimensions?

But so much of what you write here also seems to perpetuate the divide, so I’m not sure what to make of that. — Possibility

I too, keep repeating and stipulating that I make a key distinction between Physical and Meta-physical aspects of our experience of the world. Empirical Science deals with Physics, and normally leaves Meta-Physics to Philosophers and Spiritualists (until forced to deal with abstractions and unknowns). Your extra dimensions seem to be metaphysical metaphors that are supposed to have some Effect on human Affect. But how that works is not clear. Scientists have a pretty good understanding of the physical causal forces (e.g. neurotransmitters) that elicit the Affects we call Feelings and Emotions. Are you saying that there are other "forces" involved that physical scientists are blind to?

BTW. My Information Theory was based on cutting-edge science, not on New Age philosophy. So I am not well-versed in the alternative lingo of mysticism.

I’m not sure where you got ‘state space’ from. — Possibility

It's a mathematical term for a metaphysical "container" that seems to be similar to the dimensions you are talking about.
State Space : The state space of a dynamical system is the set of all possible states of the system.

What is affected is the perception or structure of potential, the five-dimensional information from which the observation is a reduction. It isn’t an ‘actual change’ as such - it’s a selected ‘mental’ structuring of potential information which determines and initiates the actual distribution of effort and attention in the observation itself. — Possibility

I need a translation into less abstract terminology.

Affect is an instruction for the distribution of effort and attention requirements, so it’s both: it’s the relation between a physical transfer of energy (actual, 4D information) and the sum of feeling/knowledge (potential, 5D information) as a prediction of change. — Possibility

Where do you get this information? Is there a book or website that gives grounding and backup for these assertions? Are these concepts related to Jungian psychology?
Or to mystical psychology? : https://www.sacred-texts.com/myst/myst/myst06.htm


Space-Time : the metaphysician Immanuel Kant said that the concepts of space and time are not empirical ones derived from experiences of the outside world—they are elements of an already given systematic framework that humans possess and use to structure all experiences. . . .
However, disagreement continues between philosophers over whether it is itself an entity, a relationship between entities, or part of a conceptual framework.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space

[Gnomon]

we have spent at least the last five thousand years trying to make sense of this atemporal aspect of experience, — Possibility

Unfortunately, I am still a troglodyte who doesn't grok "atemporality". In my thesis, I assume that there is a timeless state (Enfernity) from which space-time emerged. But that doesn't mean that I have any experience or intuition of what-it's-like to be timeless. It's merely an abstract concept imagined as a back-story for the Big Bang. That's why I don't claim to know anything about that presumptive "state" or "dimension" or "level" of existence. From the article linked below, what I "got" was that Atemporality is an imaginary metaphor to put our experience of space-time into a broader context. In other words it's a fictional concept, just like my Enfernity. But I don't claim to know anything about its internal structure or patterns. I just view it as structureless infinite Potential or Possibility. Of course, fiction-writers can simply make-up stories about the structure of their imaginary realms.

Atemporality for the Creative Artist : So, what is ‘atemporality’? I think it’s best defined as ‘a problem in the philosophy of history’. . . . The first is about atemporality as a modern phenomenon. What does it look like and feel like, as it actually exists? And the second part of the speech is: what can creative artists do about that? . . . (If you don’t get what atemporality is by the end of these few images, I probably can’t help you.) ___Bruce Sterling, sci-fi writer
https://www.wired.com/2010/02/atemporal ... ve-artist/

I hypothesize that, using past experience as a guide, the brain prepares multiple competing simulations that answer the question, ‘what is this new sensory input most similar to?’ — Lisa Feldman Barrett, 2017

Barrett's hypothesis makes sense in terms of my Enformationism thesis, but the technical exposition is way beyond my competency. As with Sterling (the "artist"), I'll just have to take her word for it. The world of imagination is practically infinite, encompassing all possibilities. But the world of space-time is finite, so we can attempt to verify any assertions of what-is and what-ain't. Some "simulations" may be closer to truth than others.

FWIW, the main reason I refer to mental structures of information as ‘five-dimensional’ is to describe theories such as this and quantum mechanics, which enable us to cross the idealism/materialism divide, in relation to information theory without resulting in confusion between information-as-thing (3D), information-as-process (4D) and information-as-knowledge (5D). — Possibility

I can accept the notion of higher dimensions as metaphors for discussing "things" that are not physical things (i.e. ideas). But I still need some grounding in common-sense reality in order to grok the metaphors. For example, what real-world difference does this concept make to me personally? Can I directly access this dimension of my own mind to obtain self-help wisdom, or should I just attend a Tony Robbins seminar?

I feel the need to explain one of the reasons for my pig-headedness (pardon the passive-aggressive self-deprecation). I came of age in the 60s. Which for some people (hippies) was The Age of Aquarius : "when peace will guide the planets, and love will steer the stars". But in my part of the world, it was The Age of Jesus' Return (the second coming). Since I was not a participant in the hippie subculture, I never learned the lingo of Astrological myths, Buddhist/Hindu theology, or Western Mysticism. Instead, my rebellion against the stagnation of Western Culture/Religion was modern Science, with its myths of Virtual Particles & Parallel Worlds. That's my second language, but I'm still not fluent in it. Consequently, the notion of "Fifth Dimension" in my mind is associated with a beautiful fairy tale. It sounds lovely, but science is more practical for mundane affairs.

[Gnomon]

and yet psychology, evolutionary biology and many other fields of application continue to perpetuate the mythical assumption that feelings and emotions are inherent, instinctual and universally defined. The latest research in neuroscience shows instead that personal and cultural conditioning lead to the construction and learning of emotional concepts. — Possibility

Where did you get this information?

[Gnomon]

However, it is important to note that in Panentheism, as Davies posits, the Di-polar God is that where both timeless and temporality are folded into one entity. A combination of both determinism and indeterminism on a quantum scale. A God that is both imbedded in the stream of time, yet retains it's eternal an unchanging character. — 3017amen

That is essentially how I imagine the axiomatic G*D of the Enformationism thesis. It's not a god of religion to be worshiped, but a Logos of philosophy to be aligned & allied with. This PanEnDeistic deity is imagined as Real in the form of our space-time universe, but Ideal in the form of Enfernal (eternal/infinite) BEING. Unfortunately, for us, such a rationalized essence remains a tantalizing mystery, whose only revelation is the world that we know via personal experience, and by scientific exploration.

Panendeism : http://blog-glossary.enformationism.info/page16.html

[Gnomon]

It is this key distinction that you make which confuses your supposed aim to bridge the divide. — Possibility

Who's confused? I still don't understand your distaste for "distinctions" and "definitions". Without those analytical steps we would have to deal with the world as one awesome mystery. A bridge doesn't erase the gap between things, it merely makes a two-way link between them. My aim is not to transcend the divide by imagining that it doesn't exist, but to understand it as an inherent aspect of our otherwise complex and perplexing reality .

In my BothAnd philosophy, I want to discover natural distinctions (parts, categories, classes), and then to see their relationship to the whole. I suspect that one alternative method would be to view Nature as Supernatural (mystical, unanalyzable), and another would be to simply "carve nature" at arbitrary points willy-nilly. Is the Fifth Dimension a natural "joint", or a willful categorization?

Carving Nature at its Joints :
Plato famously employed this “ carving ” metaphor as an analogy for the reality of Forms (Phaedrus 265e): like an animal, the world comes to us predivided. Ideally, our best theories will be those which “ carve nature at its joints. ”
https://philarchive.org/archive/SLAILF

[Gnomon]

Just another thought. I did not see Sentience in your Glossary. — 3017amen

The Blog Glossary is intended to give an Enformationism flavor to common dictionary words, and to give a pertinent definition of neologisms that are found only in the thesis. I haven't yet addressed the notion of "Sentience", as you describe it. I suppose the closest Glossary entry is the one for "Consciousness". Other generally related terms are defined in the pertinent blog post.

Consciousness :
Literally : to know with. To be aware of the world subjectively (self-knowledge) and objectively (other knowing). Humans know Quanta via physical senses & analysis, and Qualia via meta-physical reasoning & synthesis. In the Enformationism thesis, Consciousness is viewed as an emergent form of basic mathematical Information.
Is that even close to your meaning of Sentience?

INTRO : This glossary is intended to supplement the website articles and blog posts with definitions specifically tailored to the subject matter. For the most comprehensive understanding though, I recommend starting with the website, which has its own glossary and references from several years ago.