TPF : Nirvana

[Gnomon]

https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussi ... ent/498050
Existence of nirvana

Nirvana is not necessarily about 'enlightenment, or inner peace' but is the release from the wheel of rebirth — Jack Cummins

"Nirvana" literally means "snuffing-out of a candle". Which may indicate why suicidal people may find the notion of nothingness preferable to sufferingness.

[Gnomon]

Where does your definition of Nirvana come from? — Jack Cummins


Nirvana (nibbana) literally means "blowing out" or "quenching". It is the most used as well as the earliest term to describe the soteriological goal in Buddhism: release from the cycle of rebirth (saṃsāra).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana

[Gnomon]

Interesting.i would follow up with a question; can one commit mental suicide instead of physical suicide? — Benj96

Well, "going crazy" (psychotic) might be one way to escape from awareness of the psychic sufferings of reality. But, I don't recommend it. Also, I suppose that some cynics might consider prematurely reaching Nirvana (quenching the flame) via meditation to be a form of "mental suicide". In a more literal sense, the self-immolating monk apparently committed suicide, while meditating, but without actually quenching the flames. Yet, again, I don't recommend it. :sad:


Thich Quang Duc, a Buddhist monk, burns himself to death on a Saigon street on June 11, 1963, in protest of alleged persecution of Buddhists by the South Vietnamese government. (Malcolm Browne/AP)
https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-apps/ ... .jpg&w=540

[Gnomon]

put this kind of distance between suffering and his own meditating self, — Constance

Yes, some deep meditators are supposed to be able to shut-out physical pain while they retreat into an inner world of their own. Years ago, I knew a man, who had been through rigorous Erhard Seminars Training (EST), which included a form of non-buddhist meditation. He flew from California to my state to set-up an aerial mapping office in my college town. But, when he arrived, he realized that he was coming down with the flu. Since he couldn't take several days off for such personal problems, he decided to get it over-with in one night. So, he began to meditate, focusing on his bad feelings instead of a mantra. For about an hour, he felt really really sick. But, then got-up and went about his business with no more flu symptoms. That's what he told me. And I had no reason to doubt him. But what the monk did was pretty extreme. He took a quick but all-in path to Nirvana. :gasp:

[Gnomon]

do you know the meaning of 'siddhi'? They are the super-normal powers which yogis are supposed to attain through the perfection of dhyana. — Wayfarer

Whenever magic is involved in super-normal claims, I become skeptical. I don't know so much about Buddhist magic, but Hinduism has a long tradition of magical feats performed by "spiritual" tricksters, for gullible audiences. One example, that I'm familiar with, occurs in the US. It's called "Yogic Flying", or "Levitation by Meditation". This trick works best in still photos, because in videos it's obvious that it's muscles, not magic that levitates the meditators.

I don't doubt that meditation is a good discipline for those with unruly minds. But back when I tried Alpha-Theta meditation, I discovered that my normal state of mind is pretty close to the meditative state. And Lucid Dreaming was more suited to my rational nature. So I decided I had better uses for my time, such as exercising my brain by posting on philosophical forums.


Siddhi is the term given for a spiritual or seemingly magical power or capability, which is obtained through rigorous and accomplished spiritual practices such as yoga and meditation.
https://www.yogapedia.com/definition/5172/siddhi

Yogic Hopping :
https://youtu.be/UUnxnuUVEOs

Hopping while Sitting :
https://medium.com/@transcendentaldecep ... 3ac4dc59ff

[Gnomon]

Well, Thich Quang Duc would be the definitive case in point. After all, being burned alive ON PURPOSE has got to be a whole other universe of superhuman feats. Makes Houdini look like mere dabbler. I put a lighted match to my finger in a microsecond it's too much to bear. — Constance

Ordinary humans can do some amazing, and disgusting, things when entranced by faith. In some Catholic countries, people celebrate holy-days by whipping themselves, til their flesh is in shreds. In Japan, disgraced Samurai (not necessarily Zen Buddhists) sometimes committed ritual suicide by hara kiri (belly cut). Self-disembowelment is one of the slowest and most painful ways to pay for the shame of public dishonor. That's just one of many reasons I try to avoid the mind-control methods of Faith. They too often require horrendous self-sacrifice for reasons that seem ridiculous to non-believers. :sad:

Hara Kiri : https://www.interactiongreen.com/why-sa ... t-seppuku/

[Gnomon]

Of course. It is a cultural taboo, and such purported powers are obviously ripe for explotiation. — Wayfarer

It's not just a Western "cultural taboo". Throughout history, miracle-workers, including Gandalf & Dumbledore, have warned against frivolous use of magic powers. And modern stage magicians tend to be careful when & where they perform. Probably, because those who get the big head, and believe their own tricks, may get careless, and allow their exploited onlookers to see through their smoke & mirrors. :gasp:

Serious vs Frivolous Magic :
A magician, also known as a mage, warlock, witch, wizard/wizardess, enchanter/enchantress, ... As a result, competent wizards do not use their magic frivolously.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magician_(fantasy)

[Gnomon]

I don’t know. I think these “siddhi” if they were real word be of a more subtle and rationally achievable vein than flying or pain tolerance. — Benj96

Actually, there are some people, who achieve seemingly supernatural feats, not by magic, but by self-control. In the article linked below, the "spiritual" elements seems to be profound self-confidence (faith), and the human body's response to the Placebo Effect (what you believe, the body will try to do). :brow:

The Science Behind Miracles : "For thousands of years, humanity has occasionally glimpsed man’s capacity to do the seemingly impossible or the miraculous using only force of will . . . . Hof, for his part, sees the whole thing in a much more spiritual light—getting back to a purer, more primitive version of ourselves. . . . But he’s not magic, and we should be careful about trusting important health decisions to any belief-based technique."
https://www.outsideonline.com/2146421/limits-endurance

[Gnomon]

↪Gnomon
Of course, no argument from me there. But the picture of the monk self-immolating was hardly 'frivilous', I'm sure you would agree. — Wayfarer

I agree. But his martyrdom was no more miraculous than that of the Islamic Jihadiists who willingly blow their pain-feeling fleshly bodies into smithereens, motivated by their faith that they will instantly go to heaven, restored to whole youthful bodies, comforted forever by a bevy of beautiful babes. Apparently, the monk believed that he would achieve liberation from Samara (cycles of mundane rebirth & suffering).

Presumably, he would achieve Moksha, Nirvana, Mukti or Kaivalya. However, his sacrifice may also have been a supreme example of altruism. Which is a primary virtue in almost all religions. I'm in favor of moderate altruism, but I'm not prepared to go quite that far to prove my faith & virtue.

[Gnomon]

When being immolated, there is some period of time, perhaps many seconds, of continued awareness and presumably awareness of pain. — Wayfarer

Apparently, what adepts in meditation are able to do, is to be rationally aware of the pain, without suffering the emotional sensations. Self-confidence guru Tony Robbins' disciples, who walk on hot coals, seem to adopt a trance-like state of mind, that allows them to ignore their innate fear of fire, and to let their body's natural defenses control the minor damage from superficial burns. The fact that some do get fairly serious injuries indicates that it's Faith, not Magic at work. Again, I don't have that much self-confidence, and don't feel the need to prove my overcoming Faith. I'm OK with mundane pragmatic beliefs. :gasp:

The physics of hot coals :
https://tonyrobbinsfirewalk.com/physics-of-hot-coals/