https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussi ... -mechanics
A minor detail, but I'm not a fan of the suggestion that reality is not objective, — Enrique
I suspect that the article's title was intentionally provocative. All they did was to come to the same conclusion that Schrodinger did in his Cat-in-the-Box thought experiment. When a particle is in a so-called "state of superposition", it only exists in a statistical sense as a probability. Actually, the "state" may tell us more about the Mind than the Matter.
We can't observe the virtual particle's physical properties in the usual way. That's because properties (Qualia) are in the mind of the beholder (ideas). On the macro scale, we can act as-if redness is in the apple. But on the Quantum level, it's like the bald kid in The Matrix said, "there is no spoon (apple)". It's only mathematical probabilities (ideas).
Obviously, human mammals are not evolved to relate to abstract statistics, but to concrete things. Yet, for practical scientific purposes we can, and must, assume that objective reality is out there. But for theoretical philosophical purposes, we must admit that all we know about Reality is our personal subjective opinions. Just as I can't know your mind, I can't know your reality. Hence, objectivity is merely a social convention.That's why, in my personal worldview, I assert that our world is both Real and Ideal, depending on your perspective (relativity).
Phil Forum : Qualia & Quantum
Re: Phil Forum : Qualia & Quantum (the sequel)
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussi ... ent/368466
my new favorite quack topic, quantum consciousness — Enrique
The notion that quantum queerness has something to do with the "hard problem" of Consciousness has recently become almost mainstream in Science. But too many of those "bizarre" theories --- such as Penrose's microtubules --- are still stuck in a Newtonian worldview of Gear-like Mechanisms & Kinetic Energy & Cartesian Locality. But a few researchers in quantum physics and consciousness are beginning to cross the forbidden zone into areas that used to be reserved for pseudo-scientific Paranormal studies. The difference is like Steam-Punk versus Star Trek.
The common concept in both New Age philosophies and Quantum Consciousness is a worldview that used to be called "Panpsychism". I have been cautiously exploring this mysterious realm --- beyond mundane space-time and physical cause & effect --- while trying to avoid being sucked-in to the charming deceptions of magical thinking. Magic is the ancient science of gaining control over nature by appealing to gods & spirits & animated forces to intervene on your behalf. But, in effect, it merely gives the magician power over the mind of the postulant.
So, I have developed a personal worldview that carefully treads the tight-rope between materialistic Science and spiritualistic Religion. In that thesis, the role of supernatural spiritual forces is played by mundane Information : the functional contents of minds & computers, and the mathematical mechanism of Energy & Force. That's why I call my philosophical cosmology, Enformationism.
The consistent violation of Newtonian physics . . . . suggests that the most accurate theoretical paradigm is one regarding the properties of non-locality in substance as primary. — Enrique
In order to make sense of such quantum paradoxes as "non-locality", I have had to accept the ancient notion of Infinity, where spatial coordinates do not apply. Then to understand "quantum leaps" and "supra-luminal" trans-location, I turned to the concept of Eternity, where linear Time has no bearing. Hence, metaphysical Infinity-Eternity is "primary" over physical Space-Time.
its entropic properties on an earthbound scale, which our sense organs have been evolutionarily adapted to find almost reflexively intuitive. — Enrique
Although our senses are adapted to the negative direction of evolution, that we call Entropy, our sixth sense of Reason causes us to look for an explanation for the pockets of positive evolution that produced Life & Mind. My preferred term for what scientists call "Negentropy" is Enformy, which is defined in a manner that fits neatly into my general worldview of Enformationism.
phase changes — Enrique
In order to explain the positive effects of apparently random evolution, I have developed a theory of Phase Changes caused by the positive energy of Entropy.
and the mind taps into this more pervading, quantum-like substrate of causality as it perceives, experiences and is affected by the so-called paranormal. — Enrique
The quantum-field-like substance of Causality is what I call EnFormAction. But it is conceived as entirely Normal & Natural, and amenable to scientific investigation. Yet, to philosophers and scientists with a Newtonian bias, and a Materialistic worldview, Enformationism sounds like a slippery-slope to Spiritualism and Paranormal forces.
I'm currently working on a book review of Donald Hoffman's, The Case Against Reality, which makes a similar attempt to explain human consciousness in a manner that takes the paradoxes and abnormalities of Quantum Theory to be natural and normal. He doesn't deny Reality, but merely presents a model to help us make sense of why Consciousness doesn't seem to fit into our current understanding of physical Nature.
It don't get any bizarrer than that! — Enrique
Sure it does. Follow the paradoxical rabbit down the black-hole into Enformation Wonderland.
Enformationism : http://blog-glossary.enformationism.info/page8.html
Enformy : http://blog-glossary.enformationism.info/page8.html
EnFormAction : http://blog-glossary.enformationism.info/page8.html
Phase Changes : http://bothandblog3.enformationism.info/page23.html
my new favorite quack topic, quantum consciousness — Enrique
The notion that quantum queerness has something to do with the "hard problem" of Consciousness has recently become almost mainstream in Science. But too many of those "bizarre" theories --- such as Penrose's microtubules --- are still stuck in a Newtonian worldview of Gear-like Mechanisms & Kinetic Energy & Cartesian Locality. But a few researchers in quantum physics and consciousness are beginning to cross the forbidden zone into areas that used to be reserved for pseudo-scientific Paranormal studies. The difference is like Steam-Punk versus Star Trek.
The common concept in both New Age philosophies and Quantum Consciousness is a worldview that used to be called "Panpsychism". I have been cautiously exploring this mysterious realm --- beyond mundane space-time and physical cause & effect --- while trying to avoid being sucked-in to the charming deceptions of magical thinking. Magic is the ancient science of gaining control over nature by appealing to gods & spirits & animated forces to intervene on your behalf. But, in effect, it merely gives the magician power over the mind of the postulant.
So, I have developed a personal worldview that carefully treads the tight-rope between materialistic Science and spiritualistic Religion. In that thesis, the role of supernatural spiritual forces is played by mundane Information : the functional contents of minds & computers, and the mathematical mechanism of Energy & Force. That's why I call my philosophical cosmology, Enformationism.
The consistent violation of Newtonian physics . . . . suggests that the most accurate theoretical paradigm is one regarding the properties of non-locality in substance as primary. — Enrique
In order to make sense of such quantum paradoxes as "non-locality", I have had to accept the ancient notion of Infinity, where spatial coordinates do not apply. Then to understand "quantum leaps" and "supra-luminal" trans-location, I turned to the concept of Eternity, where linear Time has no bearing. Hence, metaphysical Infinity-Eternity is "primary" over physical Space-Time.
its entropic properties on an earthbound scale, which our sense organs have been evolutionarily adapted to find almost reflexively intuitive. — Enrique
Although our senses are adapted to the negative direction of evolution, that we call Entropy, our sixth sense of Reason causes us to look for an explanation for the pockets of positive evolution that produced Life & Mind. My preferred term for what scientists call "Negentropy" is Enformy, which is defined in a manner that fits neatly into my general worldview of Enformationism.
phase changes — Enrique
In order to explain the positive effects of apparently random evolution, I have developed a theory of Phase Changes caused by the positive energy of Entropy.
and the mind taps into this more pervading, quantum-like substrate of causality as it perceives, experiences and is affected by the so-called paranormal. — Enrique
The quantum-field-like substance of Causality is what I call EnFormAction. But it is conceived as entirely Normal & Natural, and amenable to scientific investigation. Yet, to philosophers and scientists with a Newtonian bias, and a Materialistic worldview, Enformationism sounds like a slippery-slope to Spiritualism and Paranormal forces.
I'm currently working on a book review of Donald Hoffman's, The Case Against Reality, which makes a similar attempt to explain human consciousness in a manner that takes the paradoxes and abnormalities of Quantum Theory to be natural and normal. He doesn't deny Reality, but merely presents a model to help us make sense of why Consciousness doesn't seem to fit into our current understanding of physical Nature.
It don't get any bizarrer than that! — Enrique
Sure it does. Follow the paradoxical rabbit down the black-hole into Enformation Wonderland.
Enformationism : http://blog-glossary.enformationism.info/page8.html
Enformy : http://blog-glossary.enformationism.info/page8.html
EnFormAction : http://blog-glossary.enformationism.info/page8.html
Phase Changes : http://bothandblog3.enformationism.info/page23.html
Re: Phil Forum : Qualia & Quantum
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussi ... ent/372278
Thus, qualitative consciousness actually precedes awareness, for qualia can exist and perform a functional role in consort with quantum effects and additional gradations of non-local reality while an organism almost entirely lacks executive, centralized control in the form of intentions. — Enrique
As far as I know, Hoffman didn't speculate much on the precise steps by which Consciousness gradually emerged from quantum level exchanges of energy (information). But he quotes John Wheeler : "Each elementary quantum phenomenon is an elementary act of 'fact creation'" Which seems to imply that any permanent change in a particle is essentially a memory. So fluctuations in the EMF, that result in a propagating pattern (e.g. standing waves) would be similar to brain waves that signal information processing. Whether you could call those "facts" Qualia is beyond the scope of my understanding.
Like Hoffman, I simply assume that there was a continual gradual emergence of more complex and long-lasting quantitative changes that added-up to the ethereal holistic quality we call "Mind". The "executive, centralized control" of thoughts and memories is a high-level form of simple feedback-loops in computation. How that translates into intention is beyond me. I'll leave any further insights to those who are more qualified.
Quantum Consciousness : Whether or not quantum effects influence thought is a valid topic for scientific investigation, but simply stating "quantum effects cause consciousness" explains nothing unless scientists can come up with some suggestion about how quantum effects could possibly cause consciousness. The argument goes:
I don't understand consciousness.
I don't understand quantum physics.
Therefore, consciousness must be a function of quantum physics!
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Quantum_consciousness
Qualia are Quantum Leaps : https://arxiv.org/abs/1104.2634
Thus, qualitative consciousness actually precedes awareness, for qualia can exist and perform a functional role in consort with quantum effects and additional gradations of non-local reality while an organism almost entirely lacks executive, centralized control in the form of intentions. — Enrique
As far as I know, Hoffman didn't speculate much on the precise steps by which Consciousness gradually emerged from quantum level exchanges of energy (information). But he quotes John Wheeler : "Each elementary quantum phenomenon is an elementary act of 'fact creation'" Which seems to imply that any permanent change in a particle is essentially a memory. So fluctuations in the EMF, that result in a propagating pattern (e.g. standing waves) would be similar to brain waves that signal information processing. Whether you could call those "facts" Qualia is beyond the scope of my understanding.
Like Hoffman, I simply assume that there was a continual gradual emergence of more complex and long-lasting quantitative changes that added-up to the ethereal holistic quality we call "Mind". The "executive, centralized control" of thoughts and memories is a high-level form of simple feedback-loops in computation. How that translates into intention is beyond me. I'll leave any further insights to those who are more qualified.
Quantum Consciousness : Whether or not quantum effects influence thought is a valid topic for scientific investigation, but simply stating "quantum effects cause consciousness" explains nothing unless scientists can come up with some suggestion about how quantum effects could possibly cause consciousness. The argument goes:
I don't understand consciousness.
I don't understand quantum physics.
Therefore, consciousness must be a function of quantum physics!
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Quantum_consciousness
Qualia are Quantum Leaps : https://arxiv.org/abs/1104.2634
Re: Phil Forum : Qualia & Quantum
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussi ... y-possibly
New thread
The Nature and Human Impact of Qualia
What are these mysterious phenomena both internal and external to mind, which create the appearance of the world while being simultaneously informed by environments, both inside and outside of particularized matter as we know it intuitively? — Enrique
Although my thesis is intended to reunite metaphysical Qualia with physical Quanta in 21st century Science, the quantum level implications are outside my limited range of knowledge. So, I don't really know what I'm talking about. FWIW though, here's some off-the-top-of-the-head speculations :
Some phenomenon extremely basic to not just current biological functionality but the structure of mind as such must exist, embodied in all these hugely variant life-forms as a foundational dynamic of cognition, — Enrique
The fundamental phenomenon, that produces both Qualia and Quanta, is what I call "Information". In its dynamic form I call it EnFormAction : the creative power to enform, or to transform.
where the translation of light into kinetic energy at any point in the electron field generates a holistic ripple effect that never fails to evince the statistical signs of reaction center activation — Enrique
Yes. As waves begin to cohere, they begin to differentiate into particles, but remain somewhat entangled in the fluid field. Those first "particles" are called Photons. But as the speed of propagation of Light-waves slows down, due perhaps to interactions with other fields, it "condenses" into particles (drops) of Matter. Each such change should produce an equal & opposite reaction of some kind, which we know as Thermodynamics.
a categorically different phenomenon of hybridized “coherence field”. — Enrique
I assume that a "coherence field" is essentially an entangled system of particles. But "hybridized" with what?
How does a Coherence Field relate to an Energy or Force Field? Coherence is the essential quality of a holistic system. Perhaps it's similar to what I call an "Enformation Field", which causes novel & unique things (wholes) to appear where there was only statistical potential before. The EF is not a material field, but merely a mathematical operator, like addition.
Entanglement is, by definition, the sign of a whole system, composed of at least two inter-related parts. The parts are interconnected via a valence (+/-) relationship, in such a way as to always be complementary (always add-up to 1 or 0). Which is why change to one-half of a partnership automatically means the other is of opposite value. Anyway, perhaps entanglement of parts on the quantum level is the first step toward greater wholes on the macro level.
How do qualia give rise to the qualitative “experience” of a perceiver? — Enrique
My guess is that the property of Coherence is what converts a quantum singleton into a system of many parts (wholes). And perhaps the mind is designed to detect signs of coherence in the environment as significant objects (holons) that may have the potential to affect the well-being of the perceiving organism. Incoherent things are random noise, which can be ignored.
To quantify something is to count individual parts. To qualify something is to attribute personal value or meaning to a thing or system of things. So qualification is merely the act of evaluation relative to Self, which we interpret as meaning. It gives personal significance (quality) to an otherwise abstract sensory experience.
It seems the structure of macroscopic bodies must impose some level of constraint on the ability of these coherence fields alone to adequately manage an organism’s behavior. — Enrique
"Structure" is, by definition, a constraint that makes a group of individuals into an interactive system. That constraint can be either a physical energetic force, or a metaphysical meaning relationship. The process of Enformation creates internal structure, giving Form to the formless.
Qualia themselves, as a basic facet of matter, may be more fundamental than the modular experiencing we call “mind”. — Enrique
What you are calling “Qualia” above, is what I call “EnFormAction” : the power to create meaningful forms (ideas, things). It's more like a "facet of energy" than matter. It is also more fundamental than Mind, because Consciousness emerges at a late stage in evolution. EFA begins as Energy, then transforms into Matter, and then Mind emerges as the function of highly organized Matter.
qualia may be as ancient as the universe itself. — Enrique
Yes. Qualia (information) is primordial.
but even if conscious experience does someday turn out to operate according to fixed mathematical laws that resemble human engineering, its mechanisms must far surpass any theoretical idea we have even remotely entertained. — Enrique
That's why I have concluded that there must have been a Primordial Engineer or Prime Programmer. In my thesis the Mathematician itself consists, not of matter, but of infinite Information (potential ratios, relationships). Which is why Reason or Logos or Structure is the essence of everything we know. Since I don't know anything about that hypothetical entity, I simply call it G*D, and define it by its observed effects in the world.
New thread
The Nature and Human Impact of Qualia
What are these mysterious phenomena both internal and external to mind, which create the appearance of the world while being simultaneously informed by environments, both inside and outside of particularized matter as we know it intuitively? — Enrique
Although my thesis is intended to reunite metaphysical Qualia with physical Quanta in 21st century Science, the quantum level implications are outside my limited range of knowledge. So, I don't really know what I'm talking about. FWIW though, here's some off-the-top-of-the-head speculations :
Some phenomenon extremely basic to not just current biological functionality but the structure of mind as such must exist, embodied in all these hugely variant life-forms as a foundational dynamic of cognition, — Enrique
The fundamental phenomenon, that produces both Qualia and Quanta, is what I call "Information". In its dynamic form I call it EnFormAction : the creative power to enform, or to transform.
where the translation of light into kinetic energy at any point in the electron field generates a holistic ripple effect that never fails to evince the statistical signs of reaction center activation — Enrique
Yes. As waves begin to cohere, they begin to differentiate into particles, but remain somewhat entangled in the fluid field. Those first "particles" are called Photons. But as the speed of propagation of Light-waves slows down, due perhaps to interactions with other fields, it "condenses" into particles (drops) of Matter. Each such change should produce an equal & opposite reaction of some kind, which we know as Thermodynamics.
a categorically different phenomenon of hybridized “coherence field”. — Enrique
I assume that a "coherence field" is essentially an entangled system of particles. But "hybridized" with what?
How does a Coherence Field relate to an Energy or Force Field? Coherence is the essential quality of a holistic system. Perhaps it's similar to what I call an "Enformation Field", which causes novel & unique things (wholes) to appear where there was only statistical potential before. The EF is not a material field, but merely a mathematical operator, like addition.
Entanglement is, by definition, the sign of a whole system, composed of at least two inter-related parts. The parts are interconnected via a valence (+/-) relationship, in such a way as to always be complementary (always add-up to 1 or 0). Which is why change to one-half of a partnership automatically means the other is of opposite value. Anyway, perhaps entanglement of parts on the quantum level is the first step toward greater wholes on the macro level.
How do qualia give rise to the qualitative “experience” of a perceiver? — Enrique
My guess is that the property of Coherence is what converts a quantum singleton into a system of many parts (wholes). And perhaps the mind is designed to detect signs of coherence in the environment as significant objects (holons) that may have the potential to affect the well-being of the perceiving organism. Incoherent things are random noise, which can be ignored.
To quantify something is to count individual parts. To qualify something is to attribute personal value or meaning to a thing or system of things. So qualification is merely the act of evaluation relative to Self, which we interpret as meaning. It gives personal significance (quality) to an otherwise abstract sensory experience.
It seems the structure of macroscopic bodies must impose some level of constraint on the ability of these coherence fields alone to adequately manage an organism’s behavior. — Enrique
"Structure" is, by definition, a constraint that makes a group of individuals into an interactive system. That constraint can be either a physical energetic force, or a metaphysical meaning relationship. The process of Enformation creates internal structure, giving Form to the formless.
Qualia themselves, as a basic facet of matter, may be more fundamental than the modular experiencing we call “mind”. — Enrique
What you are calling “Qualia” above, is what I call “EnFormAction” : the power to create meaningful forms (ideas, things). It's more like a "facet of energy" than matter. It is also more fundamental than Mind, because Consciousness emerges at a late stage in evolution. EFA begins as Energy, then transforms into Matter, and then Mind emerges as the function of highly organized Matter.
qualia may be as ancient as the universe itself. — Enrique
Yes. Qualia (information) is primordial.
but even if conscious experience does someday turn out to operate according to fixed mathematical laws that resemble human engineering, its mechanisms must far surpass any theoretical idea we have even remotely entertained. — Enrique
That's why I have concluded that there must have been a Primordial Engineer or Prime Programmer. In my thesis the Mathematician itself consists, not of matter, but of infinite Information (potential ratios, relationships). Which is why Reason or Logos or Structure is the essence of everything we know. Since I don't know anything about that hypothetical entity, I simply call it G*D, and define it by its observed effects in the world.
Re: Phil Forum : Qualia & Quantum
please explain in more concrete terms what you guys mean by this. — Sir Philo Sophia
It's a long story. My Enformationism thesis takes mundane Information (Quantitative/Shannon & Qualitative/Bayesian to be the essence of both Matter & Mind (also Quanta & Qualia, Concrete & Abstract). Ancient people had no concept of modern Information, so they referred to the same things as Body & Soul. If you take it that way, it is indeed "spiritual stuff", and could be easily dismissed by Materialists as a "quack topic". If you don't take Qualia seriously, the thesis won't make any sense to you. If you don't like the notion of "Creation via Evolution", don't bother looking into the thesis.
In my model (way of thinking), the only thing that is 'primordial' is the genetic-like programming — Sir Philo Sophia
My thesis includes a primordial program that is similar to modern Genetic or Evolutionary programming.
It's a long story. My Enformationism thesis takes mundane Information (Quantitative/Shannon & Qualitative/Bayesian to be the essence of both Matter & Mind (also Quanta & Qualia, Concrete & Abstract). Ancient people had no concept of modern Information, so they referred to the same things as Body & Soul. If you take it that way, it is indeed "spiritual stuff", and could be easily dismissed by Materialists as a "quack topic". If you don't take Qualia seriously, the thesis won't make any sense to you. If you don't like the notion of "Creation via Evolution", don't bother looking into the thesis.
In my model (way of thinking), the only thing that is 'primordial' is the genetic-like programming — Sir Philo Sophia
My thesis includes a primordial program that is similar to modern Genetic or Evolutionary programming.
Re: Phil Forum : Qualia & Quantum
You make it sound like qualia referred to by the consciousness research community has to be spiritual/soul stuff. — Sir Philo Sophia
Qualia is the metaphysical manifestation of Information. Matter is a physical form of the same fundamental stuff. If you want to know how I arrived at that conclusion, you'll have to read the Thesis. But if you are a committed Materialist, you won't like it.
"Spirit" and "Soul" were ancient terms describing the metaphysical aspects of the world. So "Qualia" and "Information" are simply modern terms for the same phenomena. But, in my thesis, the magical properties of Spirit & Soul are merely mundane mental deception, using memes & metaphors instead of smoke & mirrors.
So, yes, Bayesian Information (including Consciousness & Qualia) is what used to be referred to as "Spirit/Soul". But the magic is in the mind of the believer, not in the real world.
Meta-physics :
The branch of philosophy that examines the nature of reality, including the relationship between mind and matter, substance and attribute, fact and value.
1. Often dismissed by materialists as idle speculation on topics not amenable to empirical proof.
2. Aristotle divided his treatise on science into two parts. The world as-known-via-the-senses was labeled “physics” - what we call "Science" today. And the world as-known-by-the-mind, by reason, was labeled “metaphysics” - what we now call "Philosophy" .
3. Plato called the unseen world that hides behind the physical façade: “Ideal” as opposed to Real. For him, Ideal “forms” (concepts) were prior-to the Real “substance” (matter).
4. Physics refers to the things we perceive with the eye of the body. Meta-physics refers to the things we conceive with the eye of the mind. Meta-physics includes the properties, and qualities, and functions that make a thing what it is. Matter is just the clay from which a thing is made. Meta-physics is the design (form, purpose); physics is the product (shape, action). The act of creation brings an ideal design into actual existence. The design concept is the “formal” cause of the thing designed.
http://blog-glossary.enformationism.info/page14.html
what is the basic concept? I do believe that evolution of any system creates new innovative configurations as if they were intelligently designed as such. — Sir Philo Sophia
Intelligent Evolution : http://gnomon.enformationism.info/Essay ... 120106.pdf
Re: Phil Forum : Qualia & Quantum
so, according to your beliefs/thesis, it will be impossible for AI implemented on computational machines to attain human level qualia consciousness of themselves? If you say 'yes' then, IMHO, your philosophy on the subject is not so much metaphysics but supernatural/Theological. — Sir Philo Sophia
Where did you get that? I'm not qualified to offer an expert opinion on the possible future of AI. But some Cognitive & Computer Scientists are skeptical of machine consciousness. Are they of necessity supernatural/theological? Personally, I'm agnostic on that possible future. Are you a firm believer in AI as the replacement for humans, as Qualia perceiving moral agents?
FWIW, my thesis does conclude that there must be a First Cause (or Enformer), which is "super-natural", in the sense that it must exist logically prior to the emergence of space-time in the Big Bang. I don't call that Theological/doctrinal, but perhaps Deological/scientific. Yet, again, I am agnostic regarding any features of the Prime Mover beyond what Aristotle postulated in his Metaphysics.
Emergence of SpaceTime : “Spacetime and gravity must ultimately emerge from something else,”
https://www.knowablemagazine.org/articl ... -spacetime
Note : He postulates that something quantifiable existed before the BB. But I think it more likely that the First Cause was qualifiable (i.e. Qualia). But neither of us can prove it.
Where did you get that? I'm not qualified to offer an expert opinion on the possible future of AI. But some Cognitive & Computer Scientists are skeptical of machine consciousness. Are they of necessity supernatural/theological? Personally, I'm agnostic on that possible future. Are you a firm believer in AI as the replacement for humans, as Qualia perceiving moral agents?
FWIW, my thesis does conclude that there must be a First Cause (or Enformer), which is "super-natural", in the sense that it must exist logically prior to the emergence of space-time in the Big Bang. I don't call that Theological/doctrinal, but perhaps Deological/scientific. Yet, again, I am agnostic regarding any features of the Prime Mover beyond what Aristotle postulated in his Metaphysics.
Emergence of SpaceTime : “Spacetime and gravity must ultimately emerge from something else,”
https://www.knowablemagazine.org/articl ... -spacetime
Note : He postulates that something quantifiable existed before the BB. But I think it more likely that the First Cause was qualifiable (i.e. Qualia). But neither of us can prove it.
Re: Phil Forum : Qualia & Quantum
what are you meaning there? Are you making up your own terminology? 'Bayesian Information' should be related to using Bayes conditional probabilities in forming the information. Yet, that has nothing to do with "Spirit/Soul" stuff. — Sir Philo Sophia
I'm using a conventional mathematical probability concept for my own special purposes. Shannon information is abstract & mathematical. Bayesian Information takes into account human beliefs, which are subjective & metaphysical. It definitely has something to do with the ancient notion of "Spirit/Soul", as described in Aristotle's Metaphysics. His hylomorphic concept says that body & soul are a union of physical Matter (raw clay) enformed by metaphysical Form (design; structure). Form is the essence (soul) of every thing. Aristotle's rational discussion of human understanding of reality, later came to be applied to irrational fears of ghosts and demons.
Meta-physics : The branch of philosophy that examines the nature of reality, including the relationship between mind and matter, substance and attribute, fact and value.
1. Often dismissed by materialists as idle speculation on topics not amenable to empirical proof.
2. Aristotle divided his treatise on science into two parts. The world as-known-via-the-senses was labeled “physics” - what we call "Science" today. And the world as-known-by-the-mind, by reason, was labeled “metaphysics” - what we now call "Philosophy" .
3. Plato called the unseen world that hides behind the physical façade: “Ideal” as opposed to Real. For him, Ideal “forms” (concepts) were prior-to the Real “substance” (matter).
4. Physics refers to the things we perceive with the eye of the body. Meta-physics refers to the things we conceive with the eye of the mind. Meta-physics includes the properties, and qualities, and functions that make a thing what it is. Matter is just the clay from which a thing is made. Meta-physics is the design (form, purpose); physics is the product (shape, action). The act of creation brings an ideal design into actual existence. The design concept is the “formal” cause of the thing designed.
why could it not be a randomly formed set of initial conditions for the system(s) to evolve from there? no need for super-natural stuff. — Sir Philo Sophia
Because, by definition, Randomness alone cannot evolve any novelty. That's why evolution requires both Random Mutations -- most of which are destructive to order -- and Natural Selection -- which is the design criteria (Platonic Form) for fitness. Would you expect anything meaningful to emerge from the random noise on your TV screen? When you see a meaningful image, you know that an intentional signal has been superimposed on the formless randomness.
I'm using a conventional mathematical probability concept for my own special purposes. Shannon information is abstract & mathematical. Bayesian Information takes into account human beliefs, which are subjective & metaphysical. It definitely has something to do with the ancient notion of "Spirit/Soul", as described in Aristotle's Metaphysics. His hylomorphic concept says that body & soul are a union of physical Matter (raw clay) enformed by metaphysical Form (design; structure). Form is the essence (soul) of every thing. Aristotle's rational discussion of human understanding of reality, later came to be applied to irrational fears of ghosts and demons.
Meta-physics : The branch of philosophy that examines the nature of reality, including the relationship between mind and matter, substance and attribute, fact and value.
1. Often dismissed by materialists as idle speculation on topics not amenable to empirical proof.
2. Aristotle divided his treatise on science into two parts. The world as-known-via-the-senses was labeled “physics” - what we call "Science" today. And the world as-known-by-the-mind, by reason, was labeled “metaphysics” - what we now call "Philosophy" .
3. Plato called the unseen world that hides behind the physical façade: “Ideal” as opposed to Real. For him, Ideal “forms” (concepts) were prior-to the Real “substance” (matter).
4. Physics refers to the things we perceive with the eye of the body. Meta-physics refers to the things we conceive with the eye of the mind. Meta-physics includes the properties, and qualities, and functions that make a thing what it is. Matter is just the clay from which a thing is made. Meta-physics is the design (form, purpose); physics is the product (shape, action). The act of creation brings an ideal design into actual existence. The design concept is the “formal” cause of the thing designed.
why could it not be a randomly formed set of initial conditions for the system(s) to evolve from there? no need for super-natural stuff. — Sir Philo Sophia
Because, by definition, Randomness alone cannot evolve any novelty. That's why evolution requires both Random Mutations -- most of which are destructive to order -- and Natural Selection -- which is the design criteria (Platonic Form) for fitness. Would you expect anything meaningful to emerge from the random noise on your TV screen? When you see a meaningful image, you know that an intentional signal has been superimposed on the formless randomness.
Re: Phil Forum : Qualia & Quantum
My statement was that with such random initial conditions you do not have to have any kind of “First Cause (or Enformer)” because all the algorithms are perfectly fine starting off with a random set and quickly evolving/converging to a solution from there. — Sir Philo Sophia
Do you think algorithms (programs) exist eternally apart from a Programmer? Or were they, like computer algorithms, a creation of an ententional mind? Who created the algorithms of Nature? Who was the rule-maker? Who gave the instructions to impose order upon chaos. Did organizing constraints on randomness just miraculously appear out of nowhere? Who was the miracle worker? Like any patterns within randomness, algorithms are a sign of an organizing intervention : in most cases, a Mind.
Apparently, your worldview is based on the ancient notion of Materialism : atoms bouncing randomly in the void, and accidentally creating the marvelous world we know & love. Mine has been updated with 21st century Information and Quantum Theory. Early Quantum researchers were surprised to learn that their measurements [root : from mensura : -mens = mind] were affecting the particles being measured. That's because they were ignoring the power of the human mind to influence the physical world --- not by magic, but by making choices. Likewise, you are taking the Mind behind reality for granted. Like any philosopher, I want to know what's actually going on behind the curtain : Ontology.
Algorithm : a finite sequence of well-defined, computer-implementable instructions, typically to solve a class of problems or to perform a computation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algorithm
you do not seem to understand what those math formulations mean. — Sir Philo Sophia
I'm not a mathematician --- are you? But I get my information from scientists who are mathematicians. And not all of them are Materialists. In fact, mathematicians are more likely than biologists to believe in some kind of God, because of the "the unreasonable effectiveness of mathematics” in the formulation of the laws of nature. ___Eugene Wigner.
which definitely has nothing "to do with the ancient notion of "Spirit/Soul". — Sir Philo Sophia
That's your opinion. I beg to differ.
Please factually explain otherwise. — Sir Philo Sophia
Nevermind.
Do you think algorithms (programs) exist eternally apart from a Programmer? Or were they, like computer algorithms, a creation of an ententional mind? Who created the algorithms of Nature? Who was the rule-maker? Who gave the instructions to impose order upon chaos. Did organizing constraints on randomness just miraculously appear out of nowhere? Who was the miracle worker? Like any patterns within randomness, algorithms are a sign of an organizing intervention : in most cases, a Mind.
Apparently, your worldview is based on the ancient notion of Materialism : atoms bouncing randomly in the void, and accidentally creating the marvelous world we know & love. Mine has been updated with 21st century Information and Quantum Theory. Early Quantum researchers were surprised to learn that their measurements [root : from mensura : -mens = mind] were affecting the particles being measured. That's because they were ignoring the power of the human mind to influence the physical world --- not by magic, but by making choices. Likewise, you are taking the Mind behind reality for granted. Like any philosopher, I want to know what's actually going on behind the curtain : Ontology.
Algorithm : a finite sequence of well-defined, computer-implementable instructions, typically to solve a class of problems or to perform a computation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algorithm
you do not seem to understand what those math formulations mean. — Sir Philo Sophia
I'm not a mathematician --- are you? But I get my information from scientists who are mathematicians. And not all of them are Materialists. In fact, mathematicians are more likely than biologists to believe in some kind of God, because of the "the unreasonable effectiveness of mathematics” in the formulation of the laws of nature. ___Eugene Wigner.
which definitely has nothing "to do with the ancient notion of "Spirit/Soul". — Sir Philo Sophia
That's your opinion. I beg to differ.
Please factually explain otherwise. — Sir Philo Sophia
Nevermind.
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