TPF : Cosmology and Evolution
Re: TPF : Cosmology and Evolution
↪Gnomon
I disagree with almost everything you said, and you haven't really refuted anything I said, so I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. Thanks for sharing. — Relativist
Thanks for sharing your ideas, and for not responding to my ideas with political put-downs as some do, when faced with belief-challenging concepts of the world. I had no intention of "refuting" anything you said. Instead, this thread is intended to present some ideas from a book by a theist, whose arguments are also valid for Deism : a non-religious philosophical worldview.
Even though it differs from traditional Theism in denial of real-world miracles, Deism retains the necessity for an ideal Mind to create the Real world. Apparently, even the ancient philosophical notion of a First Cause or Prime Mover principle is contrary to your worldview. That's OK, we both have opinions about notions that are unprovable. But how we arrive at those beliefs may vary.
Your speculation referred to a "world-causing mind", and you also suggested it has intentionality. — Relativist
That is true, yet my "speculation" is based on Science & Philosophy instead of Religion. For example, I accept the Big Bang theory (BBT) --- which is the "most accepted" theory*1 of how the expanding universe began --- and not the Genesis account of creation. But BBT was a shock to some scientists, including Einstein, because their default worldview was that the physical universe was eternal and deterministic. Yet, the sudden ex nihilo appearance of something-from-nothing sounded too much like the Genesis account of Creation. And the Uncertainty of quantum physics undermined the deterministic Newtonian foundation of 19th century science. So, some 20th century scientists began to construct alternative explanations for the otherwise inexplicable existence of an evolving dynamic cosmos, but characterized by Randomness and Entropy instead of Intention and Creativity.
In Stephen Meyer's book, introduced in the OP, he discussed what he labeled as The Cosmological Information Problem. One example is the Hawking-Hartle "no boundary" proposal for how the universe could pop into existence randomly and without any god-like intention. They followed Alexander Vilenkin's suggestion of a quantum basis for the otherwise inexplicable Big Bang. But it assumed the a priori existence of a Universal Quantum Field, complete with god-like logical mathematics & limiting laws. Ironically, the quantum realm has been determined to be fundamentally indeterminate and uncertain.
Stephen Hawking and James Hartle manipulated the Wheeler-DeWitt equation, "based on the use of canonical quantization rules", to calculate the Universal Wave-Function in order to demonstrate how a new universe could be created from random fluctuations of a hypothetical eternal quantum field in a supernatural "superspace". In order to limit the calculation to a world like the one we actually experience though, they arbitrarily pre-set some initial conditions. Ironically, in doing so, they imposed human Intentions on the calculation. As Meyer put it, "the quantum cosmologists are thus like the bakers who allege they have baked a cake before they had the ingredients to do so". So, you could say that they were playing the role of a Designing god. Meyer summarizes, "Hawking and Hartle envision quantum tunneling as an event that converts a preexisting closed universe into a continually expanding universe".
Do you have a better idea --- sans intention --- to explain the existence of our spacetime universe, gradually being deconstructed by Entropy, yet populated by highly-evolved beings who question their origins? Do you take your worldview on faith, or have you done the math?
PS___ In a previous post you said a First Cause is plausible, but not an intelligent or logical FC like Plato's Logos. Presumably just dumb matter. How then do you explain the existence of Living & Intelligent beings in the real world? Isn't "brute fact" just a cop-out on a philosophy forum? That's the crux of Chalmers' "hard problem". Material science typically stops at the "boundary" of the Big Bang. But some scientists, such as Hawking, feel philosophically compelled to postulate "no boundaries" in order to legitimize their forays into quantum "speculation" and conjecture.
*1. Yes, the Big Bang theory is widely considered the most accepted theory explaining the origin of the universe, with a vast majority of scientists supporting it based on substantial evidence like the cosmic microwave background radiation (CMB) and the observation of an expanding universe.
___Google AI overview
*2. Physicists Debate Hawking’s Idea That the Universe Had No Beginning
A recent challenge to Stephen Hawking’s biggest idea — about how the universe might have come from nothing — has cosmologists choosing sides.
https://www.quantamagazine.org/physicis ... -20190606/
I disagree with almost everything you said, and you haven't really refuted anything I said, so I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. Thanks for sharing. — Relativist
Thanks for sharing your ideas, and for not responding to my ideas with political put-downs as some do, when faced with belief-challenging concepts of the world. I had no intention of "refuting" anything you said. Instead, this thread is intended to present some ideas from a book by a theist, whose arguments are also valid for Deism : a non-religious philosophical worldview.
Even though it differs from traditional Theism in denial of real-world miracles, Deism retains the necessity for an ideal Mind to create the Real world. Apparently, even the ancient philosophical notion of a First Cause or Prime Mover principle is contrary to your worldview. That's OK, we both have opinions about notions that are unprovable. But how we arrive at those beliefs may vary.
Your speculation referred to a "world-causing mind", and you also suggested it has intentionality. — Relativist
That is true, yet my "speculation" is based on Science & Philosophy instead of Religion. For example, I accept the Big Bang theory (BBT) --- which is the "most accepted" theory*1 of how the expanding universe began --- and not the Genesis account of creation. But BBT was a shock to some scientists, including Einstein, because their default worldview was that the physical universe was eternal and deterministic. Yet, the sudden ex nihilo appearance of something-from-nothing sounded too much like the Genesis account of Creation. And the Uncertainty of quantum physics undermined the deterministic Newtonian foundation of 19th century science. So, some 20th century scientists began to construct alternative explanations for the otherwise inexplicable existence of an evolving dynamic cosmos, but characterized by Randomness and Entropy instead of Intention and Creativity.
In Stephen Meyer's book, introduced in the OP, he discussed what he labeled as The Cosmological Information Problem. One example is the Hawking-Hartle "no boundary" proposal for how the universe could pop into existence randomly and without any god-like intention. They followed Alexander Vilenkin's suggestion of a quantum basis for the otherwise inexplicable Big Bang. But it assumed the a priori existence of a Universal Quantum Field, complete with god-like logical mathematics & limiting laws. Ironically, the quantum realm has been determined to be fundamentally indeterminate and uncertain.
Stephen Hawking and James Hartle manipulated the Wheeler-DeWitt equation, "based on the use of canonical quantization rules", to calculate the Universal Wave-Function in order to demonstrate how a new universe could be created from random fluctuations of a hypothetical eternal quantum field in a supernatural "superspace". In order to limit the calculation to a world like the one we actually experience though, they arbitrarily pre-set some initial conditions. Ironically, in doing so, they imposed human Intentions on the calculation. As Meyer put it, "the quantum cosmologists are thus like the bakers who allege they have baked a cake before they had the ingredients to do so". So, you could say that they were playing the role of a Designing god. Meyer summarizes, "Hawking and Hartle envision quantum tunneling as an event that converts a preexisting closed universe into a continually expanding universe".
Do you have a better idea --- sans intention --- to explain the existence of our spacetime universe, gradually being deconstructed by Entropy, yet populated by highly-evolved beings who question their origins? Do you take your worldview on faith, or have you done the math?
PS___ In a previous post you said a First Cause is plausible, but not an intelligent or logical FC like Plato's Logos. Presumably just dumb matter. How then do you explain the existence of Living & Intelligent beings in the real world? Isn't "brute fact" just a cop-out on a philosophy forum? That's the crux of Chalmers' "hard problem". Material science typically stops at the "boundary" of the Big Bang. But some scientists, such as Hawking, feel philosophically compelled to postulate "no boundaries" in order to legitimize their forays into quantum "speculation" and conjecture.
*1. Yes, the Big Bang theory is widely considered the most accepted theory explaining the origin of the universe, with a vast majority of scientists supporting it based on substantial evidence like the cosmic microwave background radiation (CMB) and the observation of an expanding universe.
___Google AI overview
*2. Physicists Debate Hawking’s Idea That the Universe Had No Beginning
A recent challenge to Stephen Hawking’s biggest idea — about how the universe might have come from nothing — has cosmologists choosing sides.
https://www.quantamagazine.org/physicis ... -20190606/
Re: TPF : Cosmology and Evolution
The scientific laws of nature are not imposed on nature, they are nature. — EnPassant
Actually, those natural laws are Nature as interpreted by law-abiding humans. As Bohr noted, "What we observe is never nature itself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning." So, as usual we humans see ourselves reflected in the mirror of the world. And we call that mirror by various names, but the most general is simply G*D. Spinoza hedged his bets by labeling his pantheistic deity as Deus sive Natura.
Actually, those natural laws are Nature as interpreted by law-abiding humans. As Bohr noted, "What we observe is never nature itself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning." So, as usual we humans see ourselves reflected in the mirror of the world. And we call that mirror by various names, but the most general is simply G*D. Spinoza hedged his bets by labeling his pantheistic deity as Deus sive Natura.
Re: TPF : Cosmology and Evolution
As I said previously, I believe the past is finite, and this entails an initial state (=first cause), which exists as brute fact. — Relativist
Is that "belief" based on reasoning from evidence, or just accepted for no particular reason, other than to allow "brute fact" to arbitrarily take the place of transcendental pre-time (eternity/infinity) and intentional causation?
"Brute fact physicalism" asserts that the fundamental laws of physics, which govern the universe, are "brute facts," meaning they exist as they are without any further explanation or justification; essentially, the way the world is at its most basic level is simply a given that cannot be explained by anything else. ___Google AI overview
I also believe that this initial state/first cause is not contingent, and this is because I believe contingency depends on a source of contingency — Relativist
If the First Cause is "not contingent", that means it is self-existent or self-caused, yes? So far, that sounds like an essential characteristic of a Creator God. In that case, the "source of contingency" could be the intentional act of creating a bubble of space-time within the ocean of eternity.
In evolutionary theory, sources of contingency include chance variation and genetic drift. However, these sources may not always be strong, as they can be non-chancy in some ways. Shannon's information entropy can be used to measure the strength of a source of contingency. ___Google AI overview
What that first cause/initial state IS, is unknown. Although it's logically possible, I see no reason to think it is a "mind" (i.e. an entity that acts with intent). — Relativist
Surely you can logically infer (reason) some necessary properties of your unknown First Cause. For example, if the Big Bang has produced intelligent and intentional creatures, then the Original Cause must have the Potential for those properties, yes? Or does "Brute Fact" simply mean Something From Nothing for no particular reason?
I see no objective basis for believing life, or intelligent life, to be objectively special. — Relativist
Is your own Life & Mind nothing (subjectively) special to you? Are you no more special than a rock? Are you lacking in purpose, goals, intentions. Does general Intelligence play no (objectively) special role in the evolving world? Is there no hierarchy of intelligence in your world? Did your Brute Fact (First Cause) have the Potential to produce intentional creatures? Or do you mean not specially selected by the First Cause, hence just a random accident or happenstance? Or do you mean not chosen for a special role in the divine plan? In that case, I'll have to agree with you.
Special :a thing, such as an event, product, or broadcast, that is designed or organized for a particular occasion or purpose. ___Oxford dictionary
If you require a hypothesis as to what the first cause was, I can simply state that it was probably some natural state of affairs that evolved (in whole or in part) deterministically (inclusive of probabilistic determination) due to laws of nature. — Relativist
Is your "natural state of affairs" the same natural laws that Hawking assumed existed eternally before space-time Nature even began with a Bang?
Are you saying that your deterministic First Cause possessed the power of Determination, including the laws of nature? Again, that sounds like a definition of a creator God. Or are you saying that the cause of this complex world is a Brute Accident? Fortuna was the Roman goddess of dumb Luck. If so, she has been on a statistically impossible streak of Gambler's Luck for 14B years.
Determination : to decide with the intention to achieve a desired end.
___Merriam-Webster dictionary
Is that "belief" based on reasoning from evidence, or just accepted for no particular reason, other than to allow "brute fact" to arbitrarily take the place of transcendental pre-time (eternity/infinity) and intentional causation?
"Brute fact physicalism" asserts that the fundamental laws of physics, which govern the universe, are "brute facts," meaning they exist as they are without any further explanation or justification; essentially, the way the world is at its most basic level is simply a given that cannot be explained by anything else. ___Google AI overview
I also believe that this initial state/first cause is not contingent, and this is because I believe contingency depends on a source of contingency — Relativist
If the First Cause is "not contingent", that means it is self-existent or self-caused, yes? So far, that sounds like an essential characteristic of a Creator God. In that case, the "source of contingency" could be the intentional act of creating a bubble of space-time within the ocean of eternity.
In evolutionary theory, sources of contingency include chance variation and genetic drift. However, these sources may not always be strong, as they can be non-chancy in some ways. Shannon's information entropy can be used to measure the strength of a source of contingency. ___Google AI overview
What that first cause/initial state IS, is unknown. Although it's logically possible, I see no reason to think it is a "mind" (i.e. an entity that acts with intent). — Relativist
Surely you can logically infer (reason) some necessary properties of your unknown First Cause. For example, if the Big Bang has produced intelligent and intentional creatures, then the Original Cause must have the Potential for those properties, yes? Or does "Brute Fact" simply mean Something From Nothing for no particular reason?
I see no objective basis for believing life, or intelligent life, to be objectively special. — Relativist
Is your own Life & Mind nothing (subjectively) special to you? Are you no more special than a rock? Are you lacking in purpose, goals, intentions. Does general Intelligence play no (objectively) special role in the evolving world? Is there no hierarchy of intelligence in your world? Did your Brute Fact (First Cause) have the Potential to produce intentional creatures? Or do you mean not specially selected by the First Cause, hence just a random accident or happenstance? Or do you mean not chosen for a special role in the divine plan? In that case, I'll have to agree with you.
Special :a thing, such as an event, product, or broadcast, that is designed or organized for a particular occasion or purpose. ___Oxford dictionary
If you require a hypothesis as to what the first cause was, I can simply state that it was probably some natural state of affairs that evolved (in whole or in part) deterministically (inclusive of probabilistic determination) due to laws of nature. — Relativist
Is your "natural state of affairs" the same natural laws that Hawking assumed existed eternally before space-time Nature even began with a Bang?
Are you saying that your deterministic First Cause possessed the power of Determination, including the laws of nature? Again, that sounds like a definition of a creator God. Or are you saying that the cause of this complex world is a Brute Accident? Fortuna was the Roman goddess of dumb Luck. If so, she has been on a statistically impossible streak of Gambler's Luck for 14B years.
Determination : to decide with the intention to achieve a desired end.
___Merriam-Webster dictionary
Re: TPF : Cosmology and Evolution
The state of the universe today, was caused by past states of the universe - so there's a causal chain, that necessarily begins with an uncaused first-cause. Because it wasn't caused, it follows: 1) that it exists as brute fact; 2) that is is not contingent (for reasons I previously described). — Relativist
Yes. And astronomers have traced the chain of causation back to an event sarcastically labeled the Big Bang, because an "uncaused first cause" didn't make sense to the practical scientists. I guess it's an impractical philosophy quirk to cop-out with a Brute Fact that must be accepted (believed) with no supporting reasons. It's a hypothesis with no evidence, but only a place holder for future facts.
I'm not sure what you mean. But I do believe the truly fundamental laws of nature existed in the initial state. There may have been some contingency in the laws of nature that are observable today, but (consistent with quantum indeterminacy), any contingent outcomes were present as possibilities in the initial state. — Relativist
So your Brute Fact First Cause just popped into existence 14B years ago --- complete with laws to govern evolution --- with no prior cause? Did BFFC also include the Matter & Energy that eventually became the organized world we now see? Sounds like Omni-potential that popped.
Again, the notion of Something from Nothing didn't make sense to the scientists trying to make sense of the expanding universe, that when run in reverse vanished into a dimensionless point of infinity : the Singularity. Is that your BFFC? They also didn't like the alternative idea of infinite Potential (unlimited possibilities) that could --- for no apparent reason --- become the Actual Universe we know and love.
As described, the first cause is uncaused - but it's not an "accident", in the traditional sense as being synonymous with "contingent". — Relativist
An uncaused First Cause is traditionally identified with a God of some kind. The Deity's existence is not an "accident" because it is not a Chance event, but either Intentional or a Brute Fact (inexplicable by reference to precedence). Chance accidents only happen in space-time.
Your BFFC sounds a lot like my First Cause, except that I define it as eternal (timeless) and self-existent (un-caused), in order to fill the causal/existential gap prior to the Big Bang. The hypothetical gap-filler had no matter or energy, and consisted of nothing but infinite Potential, which was actualized in the otherwise ex nihilo Big Bang. You and I seem to be talking about the same thing, but using different words.
Accident : an event that happens by chance or that is without apparent or deliberate cause.
Many say there needs to be an uncaused first cause, which is God. An alternative to this is an infinite causal chain, though few take this position. However, it makes no less sense to believe in an infinite causal chain than it does in God, because God is an infinite being himself, and thus his thought process is an infinite causal chain.
https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateReligion ... t_for_god/
The cosmological argument states that there must be an uncaused first cause, or "God", because every event has a cause and the causal chain cannot go back infinitely.
___Google AI overview
In Aristotle's philosophy, potentiality is the capacity for something to be, while actuality is when that capacity is realized through motion, change, or activity:
___Google AI overview
Note --- Motion, Change, and Activity are characteristic of the space-time world. Pure Being is characteristic of infinity-eternity.
Yes. And astronomers have traced the chain of causation back to an event sarcastically labeled the Big Bang, because an "uncaused first cause" didn't make sense to the practical scientists. I guess it's an impractical philosophy quirk to cop-out with a Brute Fact that must be accepted (believed) with no supporting reasons. It's a hypothesis with no evidence, but only a place holder for future facts.
I'm not sure what you mean. But I do believe the truly fundamental laws of nature existed in the initial state. There may have been some contingency in the laws of nature that are observable today, but (consistent with quantum indeterminacy), any contingent outcomes were present as possibilities in the initial state. — Relativist
So your Brute Fact First Cause just popped into existence 14B years ago --- complete with laws to govern evolution --- with no prior cause? Did BFFC also include the Matter & Energy that eventually became the organized world we now see? Sounds like Omni-potential that popped.
Again, the notion of Something from Nothing didn't make sense to the scientists trying to make sense of the expanding universe, that when run in reverse vanished into a dimensionless point of infinity : the Singularity. Is that your BFFC? They also didn't like the alternative idea of infinite Potential (unlimited possibilities) that could --- for no apparent reason --- become the Actual Universe we know and love.
As described, the first cause is uncaused - but it's not an "accident", in the traditional sense as being synonymous with "contingent". — Relativist
An uncaused First Cause is traditionally identified with a God of some kind. The Deity's existence is not an "accident" because it is not a Chance event, but either Intentional or a Brute Fact (inexplicable by reference to precedence). Chance accidents only happen in space-time.
Your BFFC sounds a lot like my First Cause, except that I define it as eternal (timeless) and self-existent (un-caused), in order to fill the causal/existential gap prior to the Big Bang. The hypothetical gap-filler had no matter or energy, and consisted of nothing but infinite Potential, which was actualized in the otherwise ex nihilo Big Bang. You and I seem to be talking about the same thing, but using different words.
Accident : an event that happens by chance or that is without apparent or deliberate cause.
Many say there needs to be an uncaused first cause, which is God. An alternative to this is an infinite causal chain, though few take this position. However, it makes no less sense to believe in an infinite causal chain than it does in God, because God is an infinite being himself, and thus his thought process is an infinite causal chain.
https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateReligion ... t_for_god/
The cosmological argument states that there must be an uncaused first cause, or "God", because every event has a cause and the causal chain cannot go back infinitely.
___Google AI overview
In Aristotle's philosophy, potentiality is the capacity for something to be, while actuality is when that capacity is realized through motion, change, or activity:
___Google AI overview
Note --- Motion, Change, and Activity are characteristic of the space-time world. Pure Being is characteristic of infinity-eternity.
Re: TPF : Cosmology and Evolution
because an "uncaused first cause" didn't make sense to the practical scientists. — Gnomon
That's not correct. Physicists believe they have a good understanding of the state of the universe as far back as 10^-13 seconds after the mathematical singularity entailed by General Relativity. The inflationary period preceded that point, as far back as 10^-36 seconds, but little is known about that era - and nothing is known about times prior to this, including the question of whether or not there were times even before the point of this mathematical singularity. — Relativist
When something doesn't make physical sense to practical physicists, they may put on their philosopher hats and speculate into metaphysical conjectures : e.g. String Theory, Multiverse. But they typically postulate some hypothetical (non god) Potential state prior to the Bang. Do you know of any scientists for whom the notion of an "uncaused first cause" did makes scientific sense? As you said, and as the overview below*1 indicates, the reality or ideality before the Bang is unknowable by scientific methods. So the practical scientists left the exploration of that "unknown territory" to philosophical methods.
Potential vs Actual is a method*2 with a long useful history, in both philosophy and science. For example, when electric storage batteries are labeled with predicted voltage, that Potential voltage is not real (not-yet-actual) prior to connection of storage to circuit or ground. Likewise, when our understanding of the origin of the universe is described as a mathematical Singularity, the Cause of that calculated-but-unmeasured state is a "mystery"*3. Yet, in our real world experience, such improbable events don't happen by happenstance, but as a result of some prior Cause/Potential. Since we have no measurement access to that world-creating state, it's left to philosophers to infer its logically necessary properties. Collectively, those properties define its Potential for causation.
*1. In the context of the Big Bang theory, an "uncaused first cause" refers to the idea that the initial event which triggered the Big Bang itself had no preceding cause, meaning it came into existence without being brought about by anything else; this is a concept often discussed in philosophical terms, particularly when considering the relationship between science and religion, where the "uncaused first cause" is sometimes associated with a deity. . . . .
Current scientific understanding cannot explain what caused the Big Bang itself, leaving the question of a "first cause" beyond the scope of current physics. ___Google AI overview
*2. A "potential" method refers to a calculation or analysis that determines what could theoretically happen under ideal conditions, while an "actual" method looks at what is happening in reality, taking into account all constraints and limitations, meaning it reflects the true outcome based on existing circumstances. ___Google AI overview
*3. A "Big Bang singularity" refers to the theoretical point in time at the very beginning of the universe, according to the Big Bang theory, where all matter and energy were concentrated in an infinitely small, dense, and hot point, essentially a singularity with infinite density and temperature, which then rapidly expanded to create the universe we observe today; however, it's important to note that our current understanding of physics breaks down at this point, so the exact nature of the singularity remains a mystery and is a topic of ongoing research. ___Google AI overview
Why do you assume the Big Bang is the beginning of material existence? What's your basis for thinking this occurred "ex nihilo"? — Relativist
Since I have no better scientific explanation, I simply accept the expert consensus that the BB theory is the best current explanation for "the beginning of material existence"*4. Unlike some speculative cosmologists, I assume that the BB was ex nihilo*5, in the sense of no prior Actual material existence. But, as a philosophical interpretation, it was not ex nihilo in the sense of creative Potential.
*4. According to the Big Bang theory, yes, the Big Bang is considered the beginning of material existence, as it describes the moment when all matter and energy in the universe originated from a single, extremely dense point that rapidly expanded, creating space and time as we know them today; essentially marking the start of the universe and all its matter. ___Google AI overview
*5. While the Big Bang theory describes the universe originating from a single, incredibly dense point, which could be interpreted as "nothing," many argue that it does not definitively prove "creation ex nihilo" because the concept of "nothing" in physics is not the same as the philosophical concept of absolute nothingness; therefore, whether the Big Bang is considered "ex nihilo" is a matter of philosophical interpretation, not a definitive scientific conclusion. ___Google AI overview
Ah, a quote from that famous philosopher, Dr. Reddit! As I've discussed, an uncaused first cause does not entail an unembodied mind containing magical knowledge. — Relativist
Yes. But it also does not exclude that possibility.
That's not correct. Physicists believe they have a good understanding of the state of the universe as far back as 10^-13 seconds after the mathematical singularity entailed by General Relativity. The inflationary period preceded that point, as far back as 10^-36 seconds, but little is known about that era - and nothing is known about times prior to this, including the question of whether or not there were times even before the point of this mathematical singularity. — Relativist
When something doesn't make physical sense to practical physicists, they may put on their philosopher hats and speculate into metaphysical conjectures : e.g. String Theory, Multiverse. But they typically postulate some hypothetical (non god) Potential state prior to the Bang. Do you know of any scientists for whom the notion of an "uncaused first cause" did makes scientific sense? As you said, and as the overview below*1 indicates, the reality or ideality before the Bang is unknowable by scientific methods. So the practical scientists left the exploration of that "unknown territory" to philosophical methods.
Potential vs Actual is a method*2 with a long useful history, in both philosophy and science. For example, when electric storage batteries are labeled with predicted voltage, that Potential voltage is not real (not-yet-actual) prior to connection of storage to circuit or ground. Likewise, when our understanding of the origin of the universe is described as a mathematical Singularity, the Cause of that calculated-but-unmeasured state is a "mystery"*3. Yet, in our real world experience, such improbable events don't happen by happenstance, but as a result of some prior Cause/Potential. Since we have no measurement access to that world-creating state, it's left to philosophers to infer its logically necessary properties. Collectively, those properties define its Potential for causation.
*1. In the context of the Big Bang theory, an "uncaused first cause" refers to the idea that the initial event which triggered the Big Bang itself had no preceding cause, meaning it came into existence without being brought about by anything else; this is a concept often discussed in philosophical terms, particularly when considering the relationship between science and religion, where the "uncaused first cause" is sometimes associated with a deity. . . . .
Current scientific understanding cannot explain what caused the Big Bang itself, leaving the question of a "first cause" beyond the scope of current physics. ___Google AI overview
*2. A "potential" method refers to a calculation or analysis that determines what could theoretically happen under ideal conditions, while an "actual" method looks at what is happening in reality, taking into account all constraints and limitations, meaning it reflects the true outcome based on existing circumstances. ___Google AI overview
*3. A "Big Bang singularity" refers to the theoretical point in time at the very beginning of the universe, according to the Big Bang theory, where all matter and energy were concentrated in an infinitely small, dense, and hot point, essentially a singularity with infinite density and temperature, which then rapidly expanded to create the universe we observe today; however, it's important to note that our current understanding of physics breaks down at this point, so the exact nature of the singularity remains a mystery and is a topic of ongoing research. ___Google AI overview
Why do you assume the Big Bang is the beginning of material existence? What's your basis for thinking this occurred "ex nihilo"? — Relativist
Since I have no better scientific explanation, I simply accept the expert consensus that the BB theory is the best current explanation for "the beginning of material existence"*4. Unlike some speculative cosmologists, I assume that the BB was ex nihilo*5, in the sense of no prior Actual material existence. But, as a philosophical interpretation, it was not ex nihilo in the sense of creative Potential.
*4. According to the Big Bang theory, yes, the Big Bang is considered the beginning of material existence, as it describes the moment when all matter and energy in the universe originated from a single, extremely dense point that rapidly expanded, creating space and time as we know them today; essentially marking the start of the universe and all its matter. ___Google AI overview
*5. While the Big Bang theory describes the universe originating from a single, incredibly dense point, which could be interpreted as "nothing," many argue that it does not definitively prove "creation ex nihilo" because the concept of "nothing" in physics is not the same as the philosophical concept of absolute nothingness; therefore, whether the Big Bang is considered "ex nihilo" is a matter of philosophical interpretation, not a definitive scientific conclusion. ___Google AI overview
Ah, a quote from that famous philosopher, Dr. Reddit! As I've discussed, an uncaused first cause does not entail an unembodied mind containing magical knowledge. — Relativist
Yes. But it also does not exclude that possibility.
Re: TPF : Cosmology and Evolution
Teleology pervades the Aristotelian paradigm (see this). We disagree on whether or not teleology exists, so I'm not going to concede a paradigm that assumes it exists. — Relativist
Teleology is not the kind of thing that exists in the material world. It's an interpretation from observation of trends in the world. Humans commonly infer intentions and purposes from things & processes that perform useful Functions instead of just random changes. For a traditional example, an acorn's purpose is to produce a tree, not by accident, but by programmed causation in the DNA. Can atoms observe, infer and interpret?
A philosophical argument for Teleology is the Watchmaker notion that a universe capable of creating creatures capable of inferring intentions from actions is evidence of an intentional designing Cosmic Mind. The problem with inferring intention in Nature is that we are not smart enough to predict the final ultimate end of the chain of causation, nor to imagine the mind that lit the fuse.
If you don't see any evidence of Teleology, maybe you believe that random accidents are capable of causing complex organizations to arise without any prior tendencies in that direction. Even Spinoza, who equated God with Nature, saw evidence of teleological power*2 in the natural world. So, acknowledging Teleology in the Cosmos does not entail accepting the Biblical account that the purpose of humanity is to serve as slaves of God*3.
*1. Teleology : the explanation of phenomena in terms of the purpose they serve rather than of the cause by which they arise. ___Oxford dictionary
*2. For Spinoza, everything we are, and indeed the continued existence of all things, is a manifestation of God's power. Carlisle uses the term “being-in-God” to describe this aspect of Spinoza's thought: the way we are created by—and conceived through—God. https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/cult ... hat-was-it
*3. Aristotle's Teleology : Although Aristotle would not be classified as a Theist, in the Abrahamic sense, he was not an Atheist. He may have been a Deist though, in that his notion of god was natural, instead of super-natural. But, his Nature was an intentional (self-organizing ; teleological) organism, not a passive purposeless mechanism. Implicit in that animated worldview was what Ari called “immanent causation”. Which entails the input, and on-going effects, of an outside agent. So the Cosmos, envisioned as a living organism, requires a higher level of complexity than an inorganic object.
https://bothandblog6.enformationism.info/page76.html
Sorry, Dr. Google, but this is not strictly correct. In his defense of the Kalam Cosmological Argument, William Lane Craig does not depend exclusively on the assumption the big bang is the beginning of material existence; he simply argues that the past is finite and that it is THIS that entails an uncaused first cause. — Relativist
I don't know about Craig. but the Kalam argument and Kant's critique were both ignorant of our modern notion of a specific origin of space-time (t=0), which has motivated Atheists to think of alternatives to that first tick of the clock. Most of those hypothetical options involve some concept of the eternal existence of something outside of the Cosmos (t = -1). Take your pick : random-accident turtles all the way down, or an imaginary eternal designing mind that works more-or-less like a human mind.
The inference from cosmology that the material world is finite, still leaves open the question of an immaterial mental form of existence. What kind of atoms are Ideas made of? If you believe that your Mind is your Brain, then the non-existence of matter would be total nothingness. In which case, could we expect to get material something from immaterial nothing? Which is more likely to exist eternally, perishable Matter, or enduring Ideas, such as those of Plato & Aristotle & Kant?
PS___ Thanks for continuing the dialog. This is the kind of exercise my old brain needs in order to continue to process abstract information into ideas and inferences.
Teleology is not the kind of thing that exists in the material world. It's an interpretation from observation of trends in the world. Humans commonly infer intentions and purposes from things & processes that perform useful Functions instead of just random changes. For a traditional example, an acorn's purpose is to produce a tree, not by accident, but by programmed causation in the DNA. Can atoms observe, infer and interpret?
A philosophical argument for Teleology is the Watchmaker notion that a universe capable of creating creatures capable of inferring intentions from actions is evidence of an intentional designing Cosmic Mind. The problem with inferring intention in Nature is that we are not smart enough to predict the final ultimate end of the chain of causation, nor to imagine the mind that lit the fuse.
If you don't see any evidence of Teleology, maybe you believe that random accidents are capable of causing complex organizations to arise without any prior tendencies in that direction. Even Spinoza, who equated God with Nature, saw evidence of teleological power*2 in the natural world. So, acknowledging Teleology in the Cosmos does not entail accepting the Biblical account that the purpose of humanity is to serve as slaves of God*3.
*1. Teleology : the explanation of phenomena in terms of the purpose they serve rather than of the cause by which they arise. ___Oxford dictionary
*2. For Spinoza, everything we are, and indeed the continued existence of all things, is a manifestation of God's power. Carlisle uses the term “being-in-God” to describe this aspect of Spinoza's thought: the way we are created by—and conceived through—God. https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/cult ... hat-was-it
*3. Aristotle's Teleology : Although Aristotle would not be classified as a Theist, in the Abrahamic sense, he was not an Atheist. He may have been a Deist though, in that his notion of god was natural, instead of super-natural. But, his Nature was an intentional (self-organizing ; teleological) organism, not a passive purposeless mechanism. Implicit in that animated worldview was what Ari called “immanent causation”. Which entails the input, and on-going effects, of an outside agent. So the Cosmos, envisioned as a living organism, requires a higher level of complexity than an inorganic object.
https://bothandblog6.enformationism.info/page76.html
Sorry, Dr. Google, but this is not strictly correct. In his defense of the Kalam Cosmological Argument, William Lane Craig does not depend exclusively on the assumption the big bang is the beginning of material existence; he simply argues that the past is finite and that it is THIS that entails an uncaused first cause. — Relativist
I don't know about Craig. but the Kalam argument and Kant's critique were both ignorant of our modern notion of a specific origin of space-time (t=0), which has motivated Atheists to think of alternatives to that first tick of the clock. Most of those hypothetical options involve some concept of the eternal existence of something outside of the Cosmos (t = -1). Take your pick : random-accident turtles all the way down, or an imaginary eternal designing mind that works more-or-less like a human mind.
The inference from cosmology that the material world is finite, still leaves open the question of an immaterial mental form of existence. What kind of atoms are Ideas made of? If you believe that your Mind is your Brain, then the non-existence of matter would be total nothingness. In which case, could we expect to get material something from immaterial nothing? Which is more likely to exist eternally, perishable Matter, or enduring Ideas, such as those of Plato & Aristotle & Kant?
PS___ Thanks for continuing the dialog. This is the kind of exercise my old brain needs in order to continue to process abstract information into ideas and inferences.
Re: TPF : Cosmology and Evolution
Classical theists including D B Hart and Edward Feser are generally critical (sometimes extremely so) of ID theory on the basis that it is reductionist in its own way. Hart argues that the ID movement tends to depict God as a kind of cosmic engineer—a being within the system of causation who intervenes to design complex systems or solve problems that natural processes cannot — Wayfarer
I suspect the ID depiction of God as an engineer is a counter-response to the atheist technical criticism of the religious notion of God as a cosmic magician. Meyer doesn't describe his god-model in the book, except to make it clear that he's talking about the bible-god. Personally, due to my ignorance of transcendent things, I go along with Plato & Aristotle to simply call them Universal Principles, that are necessary to define or make-sense-of our world.
In your Harris cartoon, showing a complex equation on a blackboard, I suspect that the omitted information (unspecified miracle) may be the inexplicit intention/goal of the scientist manipulating the numbers & symbols. Meyer discusses, at length, the various interpretations of the Wheeler-DeWitt equation (universal wave-function ; UWF) that allows the scientist to "construct" a possible universe, by "specifying boundary conditions, constraining paths through superspace, and choosing specific functions to define an applicable mathematical structure". Doesn't that sound like a "cosmic engineer" or Programmer to you?
Meyer noted that Hawking & Hartle, who used the W-D equation for their calculations of alternative universes : made "assumptions about the kind of universes they would consider in the construction of the universal wave function clearly appropriated knowledge of the properties of our universe in a question-begging way. They effectively smuggled information into their calculation." Hence, they were surreptitiously emulating an intentional creator.
Hugh Everett also constructed his Many Worlds Interpretation (MWI) on the basis of the UWF, which "represents the most fundamental description of reality that we have and every possibility that it describes must exist in some universe". You have repeatedly warned me about the tendency to reify math and mental functions. And Meyer says, "by treating all of the merely mathematical possibilities described by the Universal Wave Function as a real universe, the MWI 'reifies the math' on a literally unimaginable scale. Yet it still does not answer [Hawking's] question of 'what breathes fire' into the relevant equation" {my bold}. Meyer continues : "yet this interpretation does not cite a physical cause of the origin of our universe . . . . It simply imputes a specific meaning to the UWF by positing the existence of these other universes". I suspect that he's implying that the Observer/Theorizer gives meaning ("breathes fire") into the numbers and symbols.
Speaking of symbols, the one chosen to represent UWF, Ψ , is called "psi". Ironically, that is also what psychics called the "unknown factor" (presumably Mind or Spirit) that "breathes fire" into their theories of extra-sensory perception. For my philosophical purposes, I call it Information or EnFormAction (the power to enform), or simply Energy .
I suspect the ID depiction of God as an engineer is a counter-response to the atheist technical criticism of the religious notion of God as a cosmic magician. Meyer doesn't describe his god-model in the book, except to make it clear that he's talking about the bible-god. Personally, due to my ignorance of transcendent things, I go along with Plato & Aristotle to simply call them Universal Principles, that are necessary to define or make-sense-of our world.
In your Harris cartoon, showing a complex equation on a blackboard, I suspect that the omitted information (unspecified miracle) may be the inexplicit intention/goal of the scientist manipulating the numbers & symbols. Meyer discusses, at length, the various interpretations of the Wheeler-DeWitt equation (universal wave-function ; UWF) that allows the scientist to "construct" a possible universe, by "specifying boundary conditions, constraining paths through superspace, and choosing specific functions to define an applicable mathematical structure". Doesn't that sound like a "cosmic engineer" or Programmer to you?
Meyer noted that Hawking & Hartle, who used the W-D equation for their calculations of alternative universes : made "assumptions about the kind of universes they would consider in the construction of the universal wave function clearly appropriated knowledge of the properties of our universe in a question-begging way. They effectively smuggled information into their calculation." Hence, they were surreptitiously emulating an intentional creator.
Hugh Everett also constructed his Many Worlds Interpretation (MWI) on the basis of the UWF, which "represents the most fundamental description of reality that we have and every possibility that it describes must exist in some universe". You have repeatedly warned me about the tendency to reify math and mental functions. And Meyer says, "by treating all of the merely mathematical possibilities described by the Universal Wave Function as a real universe, the MWI 'reifies the math' on a literally unimaginable scale. Yet it still does not answer [Hawking's] question of 'what breathes fire' into the relevant equation" {my bold}. Meyer continues : "yet this interpretation does not cite a physical cause of the origin of our universe . . . . It simply imputes a specific meaning to the UWF by positing the existence of these other universes". I suspect that he's implying that the Observer/Theorizer gives meaning ("breathes fire") into the numbers and symbols.
Speaking of symbols, the one chosen to represent UWF, Ψ , is called "psi". Ironically, that is also what psychics called the "unknown factor" (presumably Mind or Spirit) that "breathes fire" into their theories of extra-sensory perception. For my philosophical purposes, I call it Information or EnFormAction (the power to enform), or simply Energy .
Re: TPF : Cosmology and Evolution
For example, a balanced ecosystem is consistent with design, however it's also consistent with natural selection. — Relativist
Darwin called his culling factor in evolution "natural selection", but the model upon which it was based was the artificial selection of human breeders. They were teleologically*1 "re-designing" plants & animals to be more suitable for their needs & purposes & intentions. Likewise, theists & deists assume that the "balanced ecosystem" itself was designed, not by Nature, but by the creator of Nature. For Theists, the Creator has communicated his intentions in scriptures. But for Deists --- and scientists, such as Newton --- the Designer has communicated his plans in the logic of Nature and nature's Laws.
Today, in view of the Big Bang theory, some scientists, such as Hawking, have imagined an a priori Cause of space-time Nature, who selected or defined the variables in the Universal Wave Function, by rolling the dice. Presumably, with no purpose in mind. The Genesis myth describes Paradise as a sort of zoo or botanical garden, which needed a gardener or caretaker to continue the divine design by weeding-out (de-selection) of un-fit species. Unfortunately, the gullible humans were weeded-out by a silver-tongue snake, and banished from the garden.
What I'm saying here is that Selection is an essential Design function. So, Theists can be forgiven for imagining a Cosmic "breeder", who created the zoo or garden in which we find ourselves today. Hence, Nature is just a continuation of the original design process. Can you imagine that?
*1. Teleologically means to explain something based on its end purpose, or to start from the end and reason back. ___Google AI overview
So it seems to me these arguments from design are a special pleading: select some facts, ignore others, and uncritically accept the existence of an omniscient mind existing by brute fact- an intact set of organized knowledge that just happens to exist without being designed or even developed over time. — Relativist
What facts are proponents of Teleology ignoring? It's basically an inference from the Watchmaker analogy. We find ourselves in a self-organized self-sustaining natural system that began ticking for no apparent reason 14B solar cycles ago. But, based on our experience with causation in the natural world, some thinkers simply imagine the WatchMaker as a "brute fact". Didn't you justify your worldview with a presumed Brute Fact?
For Spinoza, everything we are, and indeed the continued existence of all things, is a manifestation of God's power. — Gnomon
Sounds like a rationalization, not a argument.
It seems to suggest God exists necessarily, but everything else exists contingently. — Relativist
Yes. Isn't that what scientists and philosophers do when faced with a mystery : rationalize*2? When all the facts are obvious, we call it Reasoning. But when the most essential fact is a mystery, it's still Reasoning ; but if we don't like the conclusion, we call it Rationalizing.
For example, Materialism is a metaphysical concept that explains the mystery of the existence of evolving matter by extending the chain of causation backward toward infinity. Even Spinoza's Cosmological Argument is based on an unprovable presumption (brute fact) : that Substance (matter?) exists Necessarily. Do you disagree?
*2. Rationalize : attempt to explain or justify (one's own or another's behavior or attitude) with logical, plausible reasons, even if these are not true or appropriate. ___Oxford dictionary
Do you read my posts? You just repeated something I have disputed at least twice before — Relativist
I'm sorry. What did I repeat? What did you dispute? Is your disputation supposed to settle the question, with no further discussion? Am I supposed to just bow to your superiority? You expressed your exasperation with my counter-arguments before. And yet we continue the dialog. The Cosmological question has been going around in circles for over 2500 years. But on this forum, we continue to disagree without being disagreeable. Yes?
Darwin called his culling factor in evolution "natural selection", but the model upon which it was based was the artificial selection of human breeders. They were teleologically*1 "re-designing" plants & animals to be more suitable for their needs & purposes & intentions. Likewise, theists & deists assume that the "balanced ecosystem" itself was designed, not by Nature, but by the creator of Nature. For Theists, the Creator has communicated his intentions in scriptures. But for Deists --- and scientists, such as Newton --- the Designer has communicated his plans in the logic of Nature and nature's Laws.
Today, in view of the Big Bang theory, some scientists, such as Hawking, have imagined an a priori Cause of space-time Nature, who selected or defined the variables in the Universal Wave Function, by rolling the dice. Presumably, with no purpose in mind. The Genesis myth describes Paradise as a sort of zoo or botanical garden, which needed a gardener or caretaker to continue the divine design by weeding-out (de-selection) of un-fit species. Unfortunately, the gullible humans were weeded-out by a silver-tongue snake, and banished from the garden.
What I'm saying here is that Selection is an essential Design function. So, Theists can be forgiven for imagining a Cosmic "breeder", who created the zoo or garden in which we find ourselves today. Hence, Nature is just a continuation of the original design process. Can you imagine that?
*1. Teleologically means to explain something based on its end purpose, or to start from the end and reason back. ___Google AI overview
So it seems to me these arguments from design are a special pleading: select some facts, ignore others, and uncritically accept the existence of an omniscient mind existing by brute fact- an intact set of organized knowledge that just happens to exist without being designed or even developed over time. — Relativist
What facts are proponents of Teleology ignoring? It's basically an inference from the Watchmaker analogy. We find ourselves in a self-organized self-sustaining natural system that began ticking for no apparent reason 14B solar cycles ago. But, based on our experience with causation in the natural world, some thinkers simply imagine the WatchMaker as a "brute fact". Didn't you justify your worldview with a presumed Brute Fact?
For Spinoza, everything we are, and indeed the continued existence of all things, is a manifestation of God's power. — Gnomon
Sounds like a rationalization, not a argument.
It seems to suggest God exists necessarily, but everything else exists contingently. — Relativist
Yes. Isn't that what scientists and philosophers do when faced with a mystery : rationalize*2? When all the facts are obvious, we call it Reasoning. But when the most essential fact is a mystery, it's still Reasoning ; but if we don't like the conclusion, we call it Rationalizing.
For example, Materialism is a metaphysical concept that explains the mystery of the existence of evolving matter by extending the chain of causation backward toward infinity. Even Spinoza's Cosmological Argument is based on an unprovable presumption (brute fact) : that Substance (matter?) exists Necessarily. Do you disagree?
*2. Rationalize : attempt to explain or justify (one's own or another's behavior or attitude) with logical, plausible reasons, even if these are not true or appropriate. ___Oxford dictionary
Do you read my posts? You just repeated something I have disputed at least twice before — Relativist
I'm sorry. What did I repeat? What did you dispute? Is your disputation supposed to settle the question, with no further discussion? Am I supposed to just bow to your superiority? You expressed your exasperation with my counter-arguments before. And yet we continue the dialog. The Cosmological question has been going around in circles for over 2500 years. But on this forum, we continue to disagree without being disagreeable. Yes?
Re: TPF : Cosmology and Evolution
What I'm saying here is that Selection is an essential Design function. — Gnomon
To infer design depends on the premise that there exists a designer. As I've discussed (and you failed to respond to) the qualities a designer must have are exactly the sort of thing that are suggestive of design. So such design arguments are a special pleading, as I previously pointed out (and you ignored). — Relativist
I don't remember you pointing that out. But I have voluntarily mentioned several "qualities of a designer" in this thread. In the example mentioned in the book, Hawking et al, exemplified such qualities in their attempts to demonstrate how a universe could emerge randomly from quantum fluctuations. In their calculations of the UWF equation, they Selected specific values for the variables, based on the teleological goal of causing a world like our own to "collapse" (suddenly appear) from the Nowhere of supernatural superposition. Of course, their equation was lacking the creative power to actualize that statistical Potential, so no new worlds were forthcoming.
Besides the ability to Select from among variables (possibilities), as in Darwinian evolution, the ability to foresee something that does not yet exist is essential for a Designer : as in the Darwinian breeder of such not-yet-real future-things as long dogs with short legs, and plump corn kernels with more vitamin A (yellow corn), developed from the hard hardly-edible Indian corn. But the primary quality of a good designer is the creative ability to envision an unreal future state, and then work to make it a real now state. Unfortunately, the Designer of a universe has no material to work with. Only creative Power.
As a mundane designer myself, I once had an engineer marvel at an Architect's ability to start a project with nothing more than a vague idea and a blank sheet of paper. He said, "give me a plan or layout of a building and I can make it stand-up to all forces". A Designer is the one that creates the plan for others to follow. In the case of the only cosmos we have evidence for, it started with a plan similar to a seed, in the mathematical pin-point Singularity that contained all the information, including natural laws and causal power, necessary to construct a world from scratch. Was that designed, or did it just happen by 1-in-a-zillion accident?
Regarding "special pleading", you need to point out the "exception to a general principle" that I claimed in my "pleading". Which "general principle" did you have in mind? Omnipotence, Omniscience, etc.; Unconditional Existence ; the power to create something from nothing, as exemplified in the Big Bang theory. Is there some missing element (e.g. matter) that you think I am overlooking or ignoring? As defined by Einstein, all the Matter in the world was in the original Energy of the Big Bang. But where did that causal power come from? Formulators of the BB theory simply took it for granted. Is that a case of Special Pleading, by ignoring the principle of "ex nihilo nihil fit" : Nothing comes from Nothing.
Special pleading is an informal fallacy that occurs when someone claims an exception to a general principle without providing justification. It's a type of misleading argument that uses a double standard and ignores unfavorable evidence. ___Google AI overview
Note --- What "general principle" or "unfavorable evidence" have you presented, that I have ignored? Please be specific.
To infer design depends on the premise that there exists a designer. As I've discussed (and you failed to respond to) the qualities a designer must have are exactly the sort of thing that are suggestive of design. So such design arguments are a special pleading, as I previously pointed out (and you ignored). — Relativist
I don't remember you pointing that out. But I have voluntarily mentioned several "qualities of a designer" in this thread. In the example mentioned in the book, Hawking et al, exemplified such qualities in their attempts to demonstrate how a universe could emerge randomly from quantum fluctuations. In their calculations of the UWF equation, they Selected specific values for the variables, based on the teleological goal of causing a world like our own to "collapse" (suddenly appear) from the Nowhere of supernatural superposition. Of course, their equation was lacking the creative power to actualize that statistical Potential, so no new worlds were forthcoming.
Besides the ability to Select from among variables (possibilities), as in Darwinian evolution, the ability to foresee something that does not yet exist is essential for a Designer : as in the Darwinian breeder of such not-yet-real future-things as long dogs with short legs, and plump corn kernels with more vitamin A (yellow corn), developed from the hard hardly-edible Indian corn. But the primary quality of a good designer is the creative ability to envision an unreal future state, and then work to make it a real now state. Unfortunately, the Designer of a universe has no material to work with. Only creative Power.
As a mundane designer myself, I once had an engineer marvel at an Architect's ability to start a project with nothing more than a vague idea and a blank sheet of paper. He said, "give me a plan or layout of a building and I can make it stand-up to all forces". A Designer is the one that creates the plan for others to follow. In the case of the only cosmos we have evidence for, it started with a plan similar to a seed, in the mathematical pin-point Singularity that contained all the information, including natural laws and causal power, necessary to construct a world from scratch. Was that designed, or did it just happen by 1-in-a-zillion accident?
Regarding "special pleading", you need to point out the "exception to a general principle" that I claimed in my "pleading". Which "general principle" did you have in mind? Omnipotence, Omniscience, etc.; Unconditional Existence ; the power to create something from nothing, as exemplified in the Big Bang theory. Is there some missing element (e.g. matter) that you think I am overlooking or ignoring? As defined by Einstein, all the Matter in the world was in the original Energy of the Big Bang. But where did that causal power come from? Formulators of the BB theory simply took it for granted. Is that a case of Special Pleading, by ignoring the principle of "ex nihilo nihil fit" : Nothing comes from Nothing.
Special pleading is an informal fallacy that occurs when someone claims an exception to a general principle without providing justification. It's a type of misleading argument that uses a double standard and ignores unfavorable evidence. ___Google AI overview
Note --- What "general principle" or "unfavorable evidence" have you presented, that I have ignored? Please be specific.
Re: TPF : Cosmology and Evolution
In other words, the improbability that 'an uncreated, transcendent creator of universes' exists (e.g. Plato, Aquinas) is, at minimum, equal to the improbability that 'an uncreated, autopoietic universe' exists — 180 Proof
So you're saying the probability God exists is extremely low? — RogueAI
In ↪180 Proof's Immanentism worldview, the probability of a Creator outside of space-time is minimal-to-impossible, because he doesn't allow any inference from what-is to what-logically-must-be. Yet, cosmologist Max Tegmark constructed an extreme mathematical/logical hypothesis (modal reality) of an infinite array of simultaneously existing universes, of which ours is merely one of uncountable possibilities. Few physicists take his postulation seriously, but some mathematicians might accept it as reasonable. And some philosophers may view his hypothesis as an interesting Thought Experiment.
For me, the God-postulate is also not a provable fact, or even a belief to be taken on faith, but a logical conjecture about what must have caused the Big Bang beginning of the only universe we know anything about. Hence, the Platonic First Cause and the Aristotelian Prime Mover remain as examples of valid reasoning, even in the absence of material evidence. So, as Bayesian Probability exemplifies, your posterior statistical conclusions are dependent on your prior subjective beliefs. {generic you}
Quantum Gravity physicist Stephen Unwin wrote a book, The Probability of God, to present his "simple {Bayesian} calculation that proves the ultimate truth". Of course it's a mathematical proof, not a physical proof. Like Meyer in the OP, he concludes that the bible-god is highly probable. But he also admits that "the math probability does not transfer to the notion of belief".
↪180 Proof is making a statement of personal belief, not a fact of science. So, I'm guessing that his Bayesian calculation assigned a low prior probability to anything outside of the physical world (transcendent), which makes the calculation of a low posterior probability almost a foregone conclusion. And that firm belief makes any postulation of a transcendent creator seem absurd. Which may be why he responds to such threads as this one with the sarcasm, derision, and mockery of a true believer, instead of modest & respectful philosophical dialog.
Ironically, until the Darwinian 19th century, most scientists & physicists*1 found the god concept to be both rational and believable, and in the absence of any better explanation : logically necessary. So, what has changed since then, to make a self-existent universe seem plausible? Perhaps, it's because cosmologists have traced the chain of causation back 14B years, which seems almost an eternity. But Quantum physicists have found that the foundation of material reality is grounded on probability, not certainty. Hence our scientific worldview is muddled, whereas religious --- and some philosophical --- worldviews are based on the certainty of Faith.
*1. Newton's God
Isaac Newton's view has been considered to be close to deism, and several biographers and scholars labelled him as a deist who is strongly influenced by Christianity. However, he differed from strict adherents of deism in that he invoked God as a special physical cause to keep the planets in orbits.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious ... aac_Newton
PS__ ↪180 Proof says that his Immanentism worldview is "an application of Occam's Razor". But that pragmatic rule of thumb may not apply to the theoretical question of Cosmic Causation. Nevertheless, if you want the simplest causal entity, a single Mind seems to require fewer assumptions than a hypothetical infinite chain of Multiverses, or Many Worlds, or pre-bang vacuum fluctuations. All are conjectural, and unprovable. So, as I said, to insist on any of those ontological explanations requires either a leap of faith, or a conditional Bayesian belief. The latter is my preference, because it's the only one that addresses the Hard Question of how Mind emerged in a material world.
So you're saying the probability God exists is extremely low? — RogueAI
In ↪180 Proof's Immanentism worldview, the probability of a Creator outside of space-time is minimal-to-impossible, because he doesn't allow any inference from what-is to what-logically-must-be. Yet, cosmologist Max Tegmark constructed an extreme mathematical/logical hypothesis (modal reality) of an infinite array of simultaneously existing universes, of which ours is merely one of uncountable possibilities. Few physicists take his postulation seriously, but some mathematicians might accept it as reasonable. And some philosophers may view his hypothesis as an interesting Thought Experiment.
For me, the God-postulate is also not a provable fact, or even a belief to be taken on faith, but a logical conjecture about what must have caused the Big Bang beginning of the only universe we know anything about. Hence, the Platonic First Cause and the Aristotelian Prime Mover remain as examples of valid reasoning, even in the absence of material evidence. So, as Bayesian Probability exemplifies, your posterior statistical conclusions are dependent on your prior subjective beliefs. {generic you}
Quantum Gravity physicist Stephen Unwin wrote a book, The Probability of God, to present his "simple {Bayesian} calculation that proves the ultimate truth". Of course it's a mathematical proof, not a physical proof. Like Meyer in the OP, he concludes that the bible-god is highly probable. But he also admits that "the math probability does not transfer to the notion of belief".
↪180 Proof is making a statement of personal belief, not a fact of science. So, I'm guessing that his Bayesian calculation assigned a low prior probability to anything outside of the physical world (transcendent), which makes the calculation of a low posterior probability almost a foregone conclusion. And that firm belief makes any postulation of a transcendent creator seem absurd. Which may be why he responds to such threads as this one with the sarcasm, derision, and mockery of a true believer, instead of modest & respectful philosophical dialog.
Ironically, until the Darwinian 19th century, most scientists & physicists*1 found the god concept to be both rational and believable, and in the absence of any better explanation : logically necessary. So, what has changed since then, to make a self-existent universe seem plausible? Perhaps, it's because cosmologists have traced the chain of causation back 14B years, which seems almost an eternity. But Quantum physicists have found that the foundation of material reality is grounded on probability, not certainty. Hence our scientific worldview is muddled, whereas religious --- and some philosophical --- worldviews are based on the certainty of Faith.
*1. Newton's God
Isaac Newton's view has been considered to be close to deism, and several biographers and scholars labelled him as a deist who is strongly influenced by Christianity. However, he differed from strict adherents of deism in that he invoked God as a special physical cause to keep the planets in orbits.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious ... aac_Newton
PS__ ↪180 Proof says that his Immanentism worldview is "an application of Occam's Razor". But that pragmatic rule of thumb may not apply to the theoretical question of Cosmic Causation. Nevertheless, if you want the simplest causal entity, a single Mind seems to require fewer assumptions than a hypothetical infinite chain of Multiverses, or Many Worlds, or pre-bang vacuum fluctuations. All are conjectural, and unprovable. So, as I said, to insist on any of those ontological explanations requires either a leap of faith, or a conditional Bayesian belief. The latter is my preference, because it's the only one that addresses the Hard Question of how Mind emerged in a material world.
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