TPF : Information and Randomness

A place for discussion of ideas presented in the BothAndBlog, or relevant to the Enformationism thesis.
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Re: TPF : Information and Randomness

Post by Gnomon » Tue May 07, 2024 4:11 pm

By definition a metaphorical demon is not part of the real world, hence super-natural. It "interacts" only in hypothetical worlds. — Gnomon
I'm not sure that Laplace himself thought so. His idea was this kind of idea of extrapolation to the extreme, if an entity would have all the information at hand and all the laws of nature. That idea is false, because it doesn't take into account that any entity is part of the world. This is usually referred to being part of the problem that Quantum physics brings to us, but surely the problem is far more general. — ssu

Would you agree that an omniscient entity is preternatural? Non-omniscient human observers of quantum events cannot be as objective & well-informed as a metaphorical demon seeing the world from a privileged perspective. Hence, the Quantum Observer Effect. :smile:

Laplace's supernatural demon :
The demon must be an outside observer of the deterministic universe.
https://philosophy.stackexchange.com/qu ... rse-itself

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Re: TPF : Information and Randomness

Post by Gnomon » Tue May 07, 2024 4:16 pm

Would you agree that an omniscient entity is preternatural? — Gnomon
Omniscient?
You can turn that other way: anything part of the university cannot be omniscient.
— ssu

Yes. That's why Laplace postulated a preternatural "demon" instead of a natural scientist, to keep track of all positions and motions in the world, from his objective observatory outside the universe.

Laplace had confidently responded to Napoleon's question, about a place for God in his theories of a deterministic world : "I have no need for that hypothesis". Yet, his argument for determinism used a god-substitute to make his point that natural laws leave no gaps for divine intervention. Ironically, the demonic entity would need to know all natural laws and all physical properties in order to predetermine the future development of the whole universe.

On the other hand, Maxwell's demon --- organizing only gas particles in a box, instead of an entire universe --- may not need to be omniscient, just uncannily knowledgeable and quick ; in order to violate the Second Law. In both cases of teleological determinism, the prophetic or organizing entity must be able to comprehend current complexity and future complications arising from lawful interactions of zillions of zooming particles.

PS___ A> Teleological Determinism is not the same as B> Theological Determinism. "A" requires only an unidentified philosophical (axiomatic) First Cause, while "B" specifies the creator deity of some historical religious myth.


Q: How is quantum mechanics an obstacle for the demon?
A: The demon’s job is to determine the future of the entire universe from initial conditions and the laws of physics and he’s got the brains to do it.

https://elements.lbl.gov/news/spooky-sc ... ces-demon/

Laplace's demon as a secular substitute for an omniscient God with perfect foreknowledge.
https://www.informationphilosopher.com/ ... demon.html

Laplace's demon is omniscient and god-like: no mortal could ever hope to have the kind of perfect knowledge that Laplace alludes ...
https://www.bayesianspectacles.org/laplaces-demon/

The future is determined. This is known as scientific determinism. Laplace expanded this idea to the entire universe – if some creature knew everything's position and motion at one moment, then the laws of physics would give it complete knowledge of the future.
https://elements.lbl.gov/news/spooky-sc ... ces-demon/

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Re: TPF : Information and Randomness

Post by Gnomon » Wed May 08, 2024 6:25 pm

But Laplace really missed the point that a forecast of the future can have an effect on the future, the subjectivity of this entity — ssu

I don't know that Laplace "missed the point". Perhaps, in order to keep his metaphor simple, he avoided getting into the open-ended question : "is foreknowledge deterministic?" :smile:

Why is this important? My view is that people think this is some kind of "problem" that needs to be fixed, averted or bypassed by some method. In fact it's a very important limitation itself, especially when you think just what something "random" should be. — ssu

I'm not sure what "this" refers to : a> foreknowledge = determinism? b> omniscience = omnipotence? c> randomness = incompleteness?

I'm also not sure of what the "problem" is that needs to be fixed : a> subjectivity = negative self-reference? b> randomness = indeterminism? c> negative self reference = unquestioned assumptions?

What does "this" have to do with Laplace's demon or the OP question about the equation of randomness and information? :nerd:

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Re: TPF : Information and Randomness

Post by Gnomon » Wed May 08, 2024 6:41 pm

I'm not a deist, but I don't see that the position that something created the universe any more or any less problematic than to say that the universe was uncaused. The deist needn't posit anything to do with intent or purpose either. He need only say the universe was caused by some cause. As to what caused the deistic god to come into being, the deist lays the mystery there, in the god, the thing that defies causation. — Hanover

At least you are open-minded on the question of origins. Some posters on TPF are self-labeled Absurdists*1. For them, asking about Origins & Causes is irrelevant to their meaningless life. But I suspect that most of us on this forum are not quite so apprehensive or pessimistic about open-ended philosophical questions. We humans seem to be innately curious*2 about the causal history prior to important observed events and processes : i.e. a Reason for Being. Rather than using contemporary humanoid gods to explain the existence of our world, Plato and Aristotle postulated descriptive abstract labels such as First Cause and Prime Mover.

Darwin's theory of Evolution was probably intentionally left open-ended. But subsequent scientists have never ceased to push back the Chain of Change, seeking a priori. For example, 20th century astronomers attempted to turn-back the clock, with empirical evidence, to see when/where the first step in cosmic expansion/emergence occurred . This led to the Big Bang conjecture, which only incited additional questing for a more satisfactory beginning of the storyline than just "once upon a time".

Non-empirical hypothetical attempts to fill-in the before-big-bang gap include : a> quantum field fluctuations, b> eternally cycling Multiverse, c> Penrose cycling universe, d> exponential inflation of low entropy universe, e> zero-point energy of empty space, etc. All of these assume eternal existence of some unspecified or vague Creative Potential. And most are simply mechanical or accidental or Random, with no awareness or intention or Purpose (enabling Information). But whatever that cryptic world-causing Event/Entity*3*4 was, we know for sure that it has created creatures with both awareness and intention : us TPF posters, for example.

So, explaining where inquisitive Mind originated is a harder problem (mystery) than imagining where lumpish Matter came from (theory). Deists don't claim to know the answer to the unyielding "Hard Problem", but they typically infer that self-conscious animated Sentience could not emerge naturally from inert Matter or entropic Energy without some defining Information (formula). Hence, the reference to a generic Deus*5 : (1 = X). :smile:


*1. Absurdism is the philosophical theory that the universe is irrational and meaningless. It states that trying to find meaning leads people into a conflict
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absurdism

*2. What did Einstein say about curiosity?
“The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing".

*3. Deus otiosus : a creator God who has entirely withdrawn from governing the universe after creating it or is no longer involved in its daily operation

*4. Deus absconditus : hidden god

*5. Deism : immanent creative Force

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Re: TPF : Information and Randomness

Post by Gnomon » Fri May 10, 2024 10:38 am

When you read that, I don't see any reference to any open ended question rather than perhaps the difficulty of knowing "all forces that set nature in motion" and obviously "all positions of all items of which nature is composed". — ssu

Your quote is exactly the "open-ended question" I referred to. Is it possible to calculate the future position and momentum of multiple particles accurately enough to predestine the end of the world? The "intellect" he postulated is not any known entity in the physical world, so others labeled it a "demon" or "daimon". For the ancient Greeks, a daemon was a lesser deity with limited powers. But for Enlightenment Age philosophers & scientists, the term "demon" was an oblique reference to an omniscient being, which for Christians would be the unlimited deity known as "God".

Laplace's hypothetical metaphor was open on both ends, in the sense that a> it postulated a supernatural entity to serve as a stand-in for Christianity's deterministic creator, and b> in his assumption that future events, to the end of the physical world, could be prophesied by the all-knowing daimon, presumably by mathematical calculations. However, years later mathematicians bumped heads with the "three-body problem" of complexity, and eventually Goedel concluded that human mathematics will never be able to predict world events (e.g. weather) beyond a few days in advance.

Those impediments would doom "natural" computations of far future events. So, only a truly omniscient & omnipotent supernatural deity would be able to create a predestined world, with a certain beginning and end. Hence, Laplace's mere "difficulty" for a far-sighted daemon, would be "impossible" for a natural being, living within the incredibly complex system he's modeling. Ironically, some modern scientists, working with a classical model of reality, ignore the role of Chance, Choice, and Uncertainty.

"Laplace's Demon" concerns the idea of determinism, namely the belief that the past completely determines the future. Clearly, one can see why determinism was so attractive to scientists (and philosophers — determinism has roots that can be traced back to Socrates). Indeed, this passage had a strong influence on setting the course of science for years to come, and by the early 1800's determinism had become very firmly entrenched among many scientists. In Laplace's world everything would be predetermined — no chance, no choice, and no uncertainty.
https://www.stsci.edu/~lbradley/seminar/laplace.html

The next question is that can randomness be defined also with this phenomenon in mathematics? After all, if you have an random string, you cannot extrapolate how it's going to continue from what it has been. — ssu

Yes. That's why natural evolution must harmonize Random Mutations with specific Selection Criteria. Working together, these complementary factors combine freedom for exploration of solutions with limitations on the combinations that will survive into the next generation. But who does the selecting? A math Demon?

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Re: TPF : Information and Randomness

Post by Gnomon » Tue May 14, 2024 4:20 pm

He (Laplaca) doesn't need a math Demon or God. Because there is no selection done. — ssu

I'm afraid you're getting way over my head, since I know nothing about Laplace, except for a couple of famous quotes. I assume you're referring to Laplacian Scores (I Googled "Laplace Selection"), but I won't be able to follow your reasoning on that "score".

However, I do infer that his reference to an "Intellect", capable of knowledge that is beyond human ability, was an oblique reference to a god-like mind, without using that taboo word in a scientific context. Later philosophers made the same inference, but used a different term, "demon"*1, to indirectly imply super-human observation & calculation powers.

*1. Laplace's Demon :
This intellect is often referred to as Laplace's demon (and sometimes Laplace's Superman, after Hans Reichenbach). Laplace himself did not use the word "demon", which was a later embellishment.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laplace%27s_demon

If you define the future being that will truly happen in reality, you do have determinism: no chance, no choice, no uncertainty. It's really the block universe, everything is predetermined, like this discussion with you and others. It will go only one way and that's it. — ssu

I doubt that Einstein intended for his as-if Block Universe metaphor to be taken literally. But, as you noted, such a world would be completely predestined, and unlike the probabilistic (partly randomized) reality*2 that us humans have to deal with. Perhaps you are arguing against Causal Determinism*3, as an argument against human Choice & FreeWill. If so, I'd have to agree with you.

*2. Order within Chaos :
Chaos is where things are so complex that you can't handle it and order is where things are so rigid that it's too restrictive. In between that is a place that's meaningful; where you're partly stabilized and partly curious.
https://zaidkdahhaj.medium.com/how-to-p ... 4fefb12e30

*3. Determinism :
Determinism is the philosophical view that all events in the universe, including human decisions and actions, are causally inevitable.
https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Determinism

But then there is the real twist: this understanding of the universe is useless for us. We cannot model it, we cannot extrapolate from it because we are part of the universe and thus we have this limitation on modelling. — ssu

I'm not very familiar with Wolpert or Cantor, so "diagonalization" doesn't mean much to me. I suppose our "limitation on modeling" means that, pace Einstein, most of us parts-of-the-whole are not even close to omniscient. What does "negative self-reference" mean to you? In layman's terms, please.

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Re: TPF : Information and Randomness

Post by Gnomon » Tue May 14, 2024 4:26 pm

Everything is truly predetermined. The future is what it will be. There is simply no room for choice, chance or randomness.
The negative self-reference refutes this possibility.
— ssu

Some self-reference is necessary to have a self-concept. So I guess you're saying that Laplace's demon is omniscient until it begins to doubt its own abilities : to have a negative bias against itself. However, there may be another interpretation of that negative-self-reflection notion*1.

The Centipede story*2 is an illustration of the psychological effect of too much self-concern, or introspection. Normally, the centipede is able to walk by instinct, without consciously thinking about how to coordinate so many legs. But when her focus is directed from a single goal to the many steps in between, a subconscious process (no need for choice) became a conscious concern (necessity for choosing). I suppose you could say that the complex walking procedure was "predetermined" by instinctive genetics, until it became a rational mechanical design problem.

What would cause the demon's intellect to change her cosmic worldview from A> frozen totally-non-random block-time eternal-isness, to B> dynamic space-time partly-randomized evolution-over-eons? If predestination is switched to free-will, then every step becomes a problem to be solved. Hence, the demon might get distracted from the simple "why?" of the world, to questions of "when & where & how", then confused by so many contradictory options, might fall in the ditch of choice-paralysis*3.

*1. Negative Self-Reference : "question our assumptions"
https://thenegativepsychologist.com/tra ... reference/

*2. The Centipede's Dilemma :
The centipede effect occurs when a normally automatic or unconscious activity is disrupted by consciousness of it or reflection on it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Centipede%27s_Dilemma
A centipede was happy – quite!
Until a toad in fun
Said, "Pray, which leg moves after which?"
This raised her doubts to such a pitch,
She fell exhausted in the ditch
Not knowing how to run.



*3. the paradox of choice suggests that having too many choices actually limits our freedom.
https://thedecisionlab.com/reference-gu ... -of-choice

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Re: TPF : Information and Randomness

Post by Gnomon » Tue May 14, 2024 4:35 pm

Oh no, that's not it. I'm just saying that it cannot do what it doesn't do. This is the law of non-contradiction: it states that contradictory propositions cannot both be true in the same sense at the same time.
Hence it cannot simply be omniscient when it interacts with the universe. The only way the demon can be omniscient about an universe is when it's not part of it. And when it's not part of it, it cannot give any information to anybody (interact with it, in general).
— ssu

I'm not sure what the "contradictory propositions" are in this case. Are you talking about A> knowing-Omniscience vs B> acting-Immanence : design & creation of A> perfect self-adjusting evolutionary space-time system vs B> imperfect mechanism requiring occasional adjustments (interactions ; interventions) to physical settings? "A" would leave the creator-demon outside the creation, but "B" would require the demon to stick-around to tweak the dials of Nature to keep it on track.

As I understand Laplace's metaphor of godless purposeless Determinism, it postulates setting Initial Conditions, but not subsequent demonic-intellect "interventions", and would play-out via random physical interactions ; not by divine dial-tweaking. That would be equivalent to the Big Bang Theory, in which the Singularity (the Demon) was a physical state similar to a Black Hole. There was no prior intention or later intervention. That super-dense dot of matter/energy simply exploded. And the happenstance state of the Singularity set the initial conditions for the Bang, which physically determined all future evolutions of matter/energy, which are destined to die in a Big Sigh.

The philosophical problem with the burgeoning*1 Singularity postulation is : C> how did it get into that particular state, and D> what caused the imploded matter to explode? One proposed answer to C & D is that a previous incarnation of a hypothetical Multiverse ended with all matter compacted into a Black Hole, which "bounced" back into a reverse of the implosion motion : an explosion*2.

The Singularity-Demon metaphor could be explained as the intake of knowledge (information) from a previous (precedental) world experiment, which made it effectively omniscient about the new (subsequent) venture in world-making. If the cause & effect are imagined as natural & accidental, then no Creative Intention was necessary to Cause the eruption of an embryonic Cosmos, providentially furnished with DNA/information from a parent world.

Of course, the Mutiverse-Big-Bounce theory is just as unverifiable as a Demonic or Genesis creation story. So, we are arguing about the credibility of a scientific Myth. What's "true" in the metaphor, is not necessarily true in the real world. So, we're back to the OP question of the role of Information and Randomness in our Organic and Entropic world.


*1. Burgeoning : beginning to grow or increase rapidly; flourishing.

*2. The Big Bounce hypothesis is a cosmological model for the origin of the known universe. It was originally suggested as a phase of the cyclic model or oscillatory universe interpretation of the Big Bang, where the first cosmological event was the result of the collapse of a previous universe.[1][2][3][4] It receded from serious consideration in the early 1980s after inflation theory emerged as a solution to the horizon problem, which had arisen from advances in observations revealing the large-scale structure of the universe.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bounce

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