TPF : Free Will vs Determinism

[Gnomon]

Free will may need to be unpacked into two categories: — Agent Smith

Yes. I suspect that the feeling of Free Will is easier to justify in the modern era of Democracy and Technology, than it was back when the average human seemed to be a pawn at the mercy of the powerful-&-willful men & gods & natural forces. My own half & half category is a sort of compromise between religious Positivism and scientific Negativism on the topic. Like most things in the imperfect real world, Freedom is relative.

[Gnomon]

When we give metaphysical priority to our lived experience, that we think, act, and live as if we have free will, and recognize that this is clear evidence of the reality of something which transcends the laws of nature, we develop a completely different perspective of the laws of nature, and the reality of time itself. — Metaphysician Undercover

Yes. But ironically, some posters on this forum prefer to give "priority" to the reductive specific laws of Physics, and to diminish the importance of holistic general principles of Meta-Physics. In their view, nothing transcends the absolute laws of Lordly Nature, as revealed by the prophets of Physics. But, Einstein stuck a pin in the Classical Science bubble, by revealing that the world is Relative and Random. It's only "natural" selection that gives evolution a positive direction, by enforcing certain standards of fitness for progress.

Unfortunately, as humanity gains more independence -- via cultural selection -- over the nature gods, our feeling of freedom from Fatalism makes some of us cocky. As-if we can ignore or manipulate universal natural laws with our little local levers of technology. That hubristic arrogation of power is what gets the willful & prideful in over their heads. Yet, a more modest attitude may allow us to get some of what we want, without running roughshod over everybody else. That doesn't give us transcendence over nature, but does permit humans to collaborate with Nature.

[Gnomon]

We’ll have to pick at some of the clues to see what might come out of them although not seeing anything about free will or not at the outset. . . . . Big Bang Cosmology indicates that many particles may be entangled with some others, having have been all together at the start although probably not everything is entangled with everything. — PoeticUniverse

As an amateur philosopher, I don't concern myself with reductive physical particles, but with the holistic meta-physical -- or "sub-physical" if you prefer Sean Carroll's sub-quantum category -- synergy that entangles grains of sand into solid concrete. Concrete has an inter-active matrix that binds weak loose parts into strong cohesive wholes.

The whole point of Holism is that multiple particles are entangled into a unitary system that has properties above & beyond those of its elements. So, if you are looking at the clues in isolation, you'll never see any emergent phenomena, such as Life or Mind or Free Will. I suspect his allegiance to reductive methods may have blinded Peter Carter to the very evidence he was seeking.

PS___In detective movies, the gumshoe follows the clues, and tells the DA, "I know he's guilty, but I can't prove it". Observation finds the clues, but intuition binds them into a verdict.

Holism ; Holon :
Philosophically, a whole system is a collection of parts (holons) that possesses novel properties not found in the parts. That something extra is an Emergent quality that was latent (unmanifest) in the parts. For example, when atoms of hydrogen & oxygen gases combine in a specific ratio, the molecule has properties of water, such as wetness, that are not found in the gases. A Holon is something that is simultaneously a whole and a part — A system of entangled things that has a function in a hierarchy of systems.
BothAnd Blog Glossary

Systems theory is the interdisciplinary study of systems, i.e. cohesive groups of interrelated, interdependent parts that can be natural or human-made. Every system is bounded by space and time, influenced by its environment, defined by its structure and purpose, and expressed through its functioning. A system may be more than the sum of its parts if it expresses synergy or emergent behavior.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systems_theory

MOTTO OF HOLISM
https://image.spreadshirtmedia.com/imag ... ticker.jpg

[Gnomon]

Respectfully, I feel my absurdist prognosis is more physically grounded ... — 180 Proof

Respectfully : "To each his own".
An old physically-grounded joke says that "Opinons are like *ssholes . . . everybody has one, and they stink".

Absurdism : the belief that human beings exist in a purposeless, chaotic universe.

[Gnomon]

Yeah, these litany of shallow definitions you lean so heavily upon in your posts are just lazy crutches crippling your intellectual credibility. — 180 Proof

Boy! Your Nihilist & Determinist attitude has really made you sour and cynical. :naughty:

However, if your philosophical worldview is actually Absurdist or Existentialist -- as defined below -- then there may be some hope for you yet. Keep your narrow mind open, at least a crack.


Absurdism vs Nihilism :
Nihilists, specifically passive nihilists, believe that there's no intrinsic meaning in life and “it is futile to seek or to affirm meaning where none can be found”. ... Absurdists, on the other hand, hesitantly allow the possibility for some meaning or value in life.
https://thinkingdeeply.medium.com/absur ... 571efe75e9

Determinism vs Existentialism :
In short, determinism stands against the notion of human responsibility and accountability, arguing instead that human beings do not will their own choices. On the contrary, existentialists suggest that accountability is essential to basic human functioning.
https://www.yoair.com/blog/which-side-o ... entialism/
Note -- accountability requires some freedom of choice

[Gnomon]

Respectfully, I feel my absurdist prognosis is more physically grounded ... — 180 Proof

“Those of us who want to believe that human beings have free will must find sufficient evidence that our minds are something more than can ever be attributed to physical causes.”
___Peter Carter, The Single Simple Question

Carter makes it clear that, although he has rationally concluded that causal determinism prohibits human freedom, emotionally he cannot accept that his beautiful world is inherently meaningless, that his loved ones are automatons, or that life itself is a farce. So, he holds out hope that his calculations are wrong.

This pathetic hope-against-all-hope is one of the "absurd human passions" that Hume referred to as inappropriate for a perfect deity. Carter must be aware that neither the world, nor its reasoning creatures, are perfect. Yet, his working definition of "FreeWill" seems to require a perfect & omniscient being. Hence, his project -- of proving that Determinism is not absolute -- is bound to fail. However, if he could accept a less-than-perfect definition of freedom, his desire for a world in which Reason is not ridiculous might prove to be reasonable.

Freedom within Determinism :
“Determinism is a long chain of cause & effect, with no missing links.
Freewill is when one of those links is smart enough to absorb a cause and modify it before passing it along. In other words, a self-conscious link is a causal agent---a transformer, not just a dumb transmitter. And each intentional causation changes the course of deterministic history to some small degree.”
___Yehya
BothAnd Blog, post 48

[Gnomon]

A real example strong emergence is needed, if there is one. The liquidity is because the tiny hydrogen atoms roll around and also roam between (as ions) the much larger oxygen atoms. — PoeticUniverse

OK. I'll admit that "wetness" is a qualia, not a quanta. But "liquidity" is a measurable physical difference (e.g. viscosity) between gas, solid & liquid forms of H2O. Maybe that's why Fish don't know they are wet : their scientists haven't studied their environment philosophically in terms of Qualia. :joke:

Emergence: A unifying theme for 21st century science :
"Examples of emergent behavior are everywhere around us, from birds flocking, fireflies synchronizing, ants colonizing, fish schooling, individuals self-organizing into neighborhoods in cities – all with no leaders or central control – to the Big Bang, the formation of galaxies and stars and planets, . . ."
https://medium.com/sfi-30-foundations-f ... 24ac0f951e
Note 1 -- this article is from the Santa Fe Institute for Complexity Science : dedicated to the multidisciplinary study of the fundamental principles of "complex adaptive systems", including physical, computational, biological, and social systems. This is where I get a lot of my information about cutting edge science, that might not be common knowledge.

Note 2 -- In my understanding, Consciousness is an emergent quality of the complex adaptive system we call the "Brain". You can't measure it physically, but you infer it rationally. Some scientists tried to measure Einstein's brain to see what made him so smart. But, that was futile, like trying to measure the weight of a Soul.

[Gnomon]

Great work. — Garrett Travers

Thanks. But you might not agree with some of my Poetic & Philosophical speculations on controversial topics such as Consciousness & Free Will.

[Gnomon]

Would a non determined spontaneous will choice count as free? — PoeticUniverse

Yes. That's what I referred to in the blog review as "Un-scripted". The analogy is to actors improvising their character's lines & gestures within the constraints of the director's general plot. I view that as an example of Freedom within Determinism. Nature sets the stage and establishes a general direction for evolution, but intelligent Actors (free agents) are able to do their own character development. As in life, the result is often absurd & comedic, due to the lack of pre-determined structure.

BTW, in your videos, are any of your characters, spouting sagely aphorisms, free to create their own dialog? Or are you a tyrannical deterministic creator? :joke:


“The mind is a kind of theatre . . .” ___David Hume
Unlike stage actors, with a script, freewill agents are ad-libbing their roles, by reacting to the changing scenario. The playwright merely places characters in a situation, then allows them to improvise and extemporize, based on each character’s individual traits. We learn bits about the other characters, and about the plot, by inter-acting. The playwright has left us free to create a unique role for ourselves.
BothAnd Blog, post 122

Improvisational theatre, often called improvisation or improv, is the form of theatre, often comedy, in which most or all of what is performed is unplanned or unscripted: created spontaneously by the performers. ___Wikipedia

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... ort_-4.jpg

[Gnomon]

'Free won't' is just the usual subconscious neural 'voting' that comes from another part of the brain will than did the initial proposal. — PoeticUniverse

Yes, but that other "part" of the brain is not a physical Location ; it's the holistic governing Function we call the "Conscience" or the "Super-Ego". It's function is not to control body parts, but to guide the whole system of parts known as the "Self" or "the captain of my soul". And its commands are the only "votes" that we are consciously aware of. So the subconscious crew has no choice but to say "aye, aye sir". :halo: