To be clear, Enformationism does not "assign intent or human qualities to Nature". Instead, Nature is coasting on momentum from the initial impetus of goal-directed Intention. The only "human qualities" in the natural world, so far, are found in the homo sapiens species. — Gnomon
Again you seem to back peddle here. The two underlined phrases directly contradict each other! If the above quote is true then why do you keep trying to promote the concept of a manifest 'enformer,' as your 'novel' label for a first cause mind? — universeness
No. It's your interpretation that is contradictory. Any signs of direction or intention in Nature are due to the original impetus of the First Cause or Big Bang, whichever you prefer. An arrow shot from a bow will hit the target, not due to any arrow-intention but to the bowman aiming. So I was not assigning intention to the arrow. But in this metaphor, the momentous arrow has spawned a little splinter with a mind of its own.
Vacuum Energy :
Prior to the 20th century, the notion of Nothingness with causal properties would be tantamount to the ancient concept of eternal infinitely powerful Spirit (i.e. God). But scientists can now get away with such literal nonsense, in part, because Quantum physics has forced them to accept paradoxical & counter-intuitive properties in Nature. — Gnomon
No, that's merely your personal interpretation. This is no such reality as a state of nothingness as you need 'something' to even attempt to contemplate such a notion. — universeness
Again, your interpretation is different from my intention. The original meaning of "Vacuum" was emptiness or void or nothingness. The notion of "vacuum energy" was paradoxical until quantum field theory was interpreted to imply that the field "must be quantized at each and every point in space". Today the notion of energy in emptiness is just another of the many logical paradoxes of quantum theory. When you say "there's no such reality as a state of nothingess" you are referring to the same old paradox of "Zero". Which is an idea, not a real thing.
A vacuum is essentially a great lack of something https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/vacuum
Avoiding religious implications, leaves you with equally woo woo theistic implications.
You are conflating, when you try to connect 'logos' with G*D(or G-D, in Jewish tradition).
Logos can be used to refer to the concept of a deity, but, is also used as: — universeness
For the record, "G*D" (non traditional deity concept) is not equivalent to Jewish "G-D" (fear of offending Yahweh by using his personal name). Here, you are doing the conflating. My reference to Plato's "LOGOS" was explicitly not to a theistic Deity, but to a philosophical Rational Principle in the real world.
What a deep faith in the rationality of the structure of the world and what a longing to understand even a small glimpse of the reason revealed in the world there must have been in Kepler and Newton to enable them to unravel the mechanism of the heavens in long years of lonely work!
___Albert Einstein
How dare this 'curious' god you invoke, take such an irresponsible action, and then accept no responsibility for the consequences and the horrific suffering it caused. This is a vile, self-indulgent, entity you posit, by any decent standard of human morality. — universeness
Apparently, you are appalled by the imperfect world you live in. Yet, you have no one to blame. In my thesis, I blame both the Good and Evil of the world on the hypothetical amoral Experimenter. Fortunately for you, I have broad shoulders, so you can offload your heavy load of disgust onto me.
Your enformer manifestation has the basic same bad attributes as the gods in the abrahamic religions. — universeness
Again, your mis-interpretation is colored by your prejudice against Metaphysical concepts, and not my hypothesis of an amoral First Cause. The "bad attributes" you refer to are endemic to Reality. So, unless you are ready to abandon Nature, you'll just have to suck-it-up like the rest of us.
TPF : Emergence, Physical vs Metaphysical
Re: TPF : Emergence, Physical vs Metaphysical
but such purpose is not universal, it is discrete and ONLY via individual lifeforms such as US (we can also work in common cause) and the first cause of that imo, is when Earth species, especially hominid species, became fully self-aware and could demonstrate intent and purpose. — universeness
Your matter-bounded interpretation of causation seems to imagine that the chain of Cause & Effect began miraculously (serendipity or chance) in the Big Bang, with no antecedent and no Purpose or Reason. By contrast, Aristotle reasoned that no Actual thing in Nature emerges unless the Potential for that Effect was already inherent in the logical structure of the system -- or imported from outside the system. In this case, the un-bounded (infinite) system of Potential or Possibility is antecedent to space-time reality. I call that logically necessary Principle (Omnipotence -- unlimited power of causation) : LOGOS .
Potential vs Actual :
Aristotle delineates his subject matter in a different way, by listing the problems or perplexities (aporiai) he hopes to deal with. Characteristic of these perplexities, he says, is that they tie our thinking up in knots. They include the following, among others: Are sensible substances the only ones that exist, or are there others besides them? Is it kinds or individuals that are the elements and principles of things? And if it is kinds, which ones: the most generic or the most specific? Is there a cause apart from matter? Is there anything apart from material compounds? Are the principles limited, either in number or in kind? Are the principles of perishable things themselves perishable? Are the principles universal or particular, and do they exist potentially or actually? Are mathematical objects (numbers, lines, figures, points) substances? If they are, are they separate from or do they always belong to sensible things? And (“the hardest and most perplexing of all,” Aristotle says) are unity and being the substance of things, or are they attributes of some other subject?
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/aris ... taphysics/
Big Bang non-sense :
The ambition to find the ultimate reason for the existence of everything may be acceptable as a (pseudo-) religious quest but hardly as an objective and rational scientific endeavour. It is obvious that the assumption of a 'creation' is logically inconsistent with the scientific principle of cause and effect. Any valid scientific approach is therefore necessarily tied to the infinite dimensions of space and time as the forms of existence (the argument of cosmologists that time and space came only into existence at the 'time' of the big bang is a logical contradiction in itself and therefore scientifically nonsense).
https://www.physicsmyths.org.uk/cosmology.htm
Note : The "scientific approach" is self-limited to Physics. But the Philosophical approach of Meta-Physics places no such limits on human reason & imagination. Ironically, this quote goes beyond its own limitations, by assuming, without evidence, an eternal unbounded Antecedent of the Big Bang. Perhaps a non-empirical hypothetical Multiverse. But Einstein defined the physical universe as "finite, but unbounded", as in a sphere existing in eternal space-time. So what lies beyond the bounds?
Greek "Logos", not the Christian "Word" :
As implied by the asterisk in the spelling, this G*D model is not a traditional religious deity, created in the image of his worshippers. It won't be found in any ancient religious texts. However, it has much in common with many philosophical and scientific models of ultimate reality. Plato & Aristotle argued their theories from the assumption of Logos as the creator of Cosmos from Chaos. The Hindu Vedas gave the masses dramatic stories of heroic human-form gods. But among the thinkers themselves they referred to undefined ultimate reality as Brahman, with no human characteristics. The Buddha told his disciples not to worry about any of those fictional devas, but his worldview seemed to tacitly assume an Impersonal Absolute equivalent to Brahman, as an explanation for existence.
http://bothandblog2.enformationism.info/page35.html
Your matter-bounded interpretation of causation seems to imagine that the chain of Cause & Effect began miraculously (serendipity or chance) in the Big Bang, with no antecedent and no Purpose or Reason. By contrast, Aristotle reasoned that no Actual thing in Nature emerges unless the Potential for that Effect was already inherent in the logical structure of the system -- or imported from outside the system. In this case, the un-bounded (infinite) system of Potential or Possibility is antecedent to space-time reality. I call that logically necessary Principle (Omnipotence -- unlimited power of causation) : LOGOS .
Potential vs Actual :
Aristotle delineates his subject matter in a different way, by listing the problems or perplexities (aporiai) he hopes to deal with. Characteristic of these perplexities, he says, is that they tie our thinking up in knots. They include the following, among others: Are sensible substances the only ones that exist, or are there others besides them? Is it kinds or individuals that are the elements and principles of things? And if it is kinds, which ones: the most generic or the most specific? Is there a cause apart from matter? Is there anything apart from material compounds? Are the principles limited, either in number or in kind? Are the principles of perishable things themselves perishable? Are the principles universal or particular, and do they exist potentially or actually? Are mathematical objects (numbers, lines, figures, points) substances? If they are, are they separate from or do they always belong to sensible things? And (“the hardest and most perplexing of all,” Aristotle says) are unity and being the substance of things, or are they attributes of some other subject?
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/aris ... taphysics/
Big Bang non-sense :
The ambition to find the ultimate reason for the existence of everything may be acceptable as a (pseudo-) religious quest but hardly as an objective and rational scientific endeavour. It is obvious that the assumption of a 'creation' is logically inconsistent with the scientific principle of cause and effect. Any valid scientific approach is therefore necessarily tied to the infinite dimensions of space and time as the forms of existence (the argument of cosmologists that time and space came only into existence at the 'time' of the big bang is a logical contradiction in itself and therefore scientifically nonsense).
https://www.physicsmyths.org.uk/cosmology.htm
Note : The "scientific approach" is self-limited to Physics. But the Philosophical approach of Meta-Physics places no such limits on human reason & imagination. Ironically, this quote goes beyond its own limitations, by assuming, without evidence, an eternal unbounded Antecedent of the Big Bang. Perhaps a non-empirical hypothetical Multiverse. But Einstein defined the physical universe as "finite, but unbounded", as in a sphere existing in eternal space-time. So what lies beyond the bounds?
Greek "Logos", not the Christian "Word" :
As implied by the asterisk in the spelling, this G*D model is not a traditional religious deity, created in the image of his worshippers. It won't be found in any ancient religious texts. However, it has much in common with many philosophical and scientific models of ultimate reality. Plato & Aristotle argued their theories from the assumption of Logos as the creator of Cosmos from Chaos. The Hindu Vedas gave the masses dramatic stories of heroic human-form gods. But among the thinkers themselves they referred to undefined ultimate reality as Brahman, with no human characteristics. The Buddha told his disciples not to worry about any of those fictional devas, but his worldview seemed to tacitly assume an Impersonal Absolute equivalent to Brahman, as an explanation for existence.
http://bothandblog2.enformationism.info/page35.html
Re: TPF : Emergence, Physical vs Metaphysical
What are you prioritising most here? An enformation posit that supports information, as the universal fundamental for the structure of the universe or the idea that you agree with those who state we don't know if the fundamental structure of the universe is analogue or digital? You seem to significantly alter your emphasis, depending on who you are responding to? — universeness
Yes, my philosophy is BothAnd, not Either/Or. So, my responses are not wishy-washy, but simply tailored to how the question is framed. As the PhysicsForums quote said : "The universe is analog. period. when we make simulations we use a digital aproximation". Holistically : the universe is continuous and analog. Reductively : the universe is simulated as particular and digital. Both answers are true, in context.
Yes, my philosophy is BothAnd, not Either/Or. So, my responses are not wishy-washy, but simply tailored to how the question is framed. As the PhysicsForums quote said : "The universe is analog. period. when we make simulations we use a digital aproximation". Holistically : the universe is continuous and analog. Reductively : the universe is simulated as particular and digital. Both answers are true, in context.
Re: TPF : Emergence, Physical vs Metaphysical
This really is an obvious attempt to camouflage or'dampen down,' the credence level you obviously assign to 'god of the gaps posits' or a first cause mind with intent, as the creator of our universe.
It is irrelevant whether or not you portray your gap god as non-intervening or not. I could accept your position more, if you were more upfront about it and stated your 'enformer,' as 'utter speculation,' with no evidence at all, and did not try to project it, from current knowledge of quantum phenomena.. — universeness
No. If anything, I'm trying to dampen down your prejudiced incredulity level. This is not a Physics forum, so I am not claiming to have physical evidence for my Philosophical speculations about the immeasurable knowledge gap*1 before the beginning of our world. My "speculative" thesis is not about that cognitive vacuum; and it's not about Gods & Religions; but about how our own home-world works : via EnFormAction. How many times do I have to say that? The gnarly "gap god" is a figment of your fearful imagination, not a core feature of the information thesis, except as an implicit logical necessity.
How much more "upfront" can I be than to refer to my G*D concept as an "unproveable axiom"*2. I have posted the definition below many times before. Scientists, Philosophers, and Mathematicians commonly use Axioms as a premise or starting point for reasoning. The subsequent reasoning is about the ubiquity & consequence of the understanding that immaterial Information is the fundamental element of our real world. You seem to be gagging on the idea of the medicine, not the medicine itself.
Once again, I'll say that you are incredulous about a scary-image in your own mind, not mine. I don't care if you despise the notion of a World Creator. The point of my thesis is to develop (not originate) a new philosophical model of Reality, with Information instead of Matter as the basic building block. I refer to the opinions of Quantum and Information scientists to support the information-centric post-materialism paradigm, not to prove the existence of a hypothetical Programmer. However, if our world is indeed information-based, it is logical to assume that an Enformer of some kind is responsible for the ongoing process of En-Form-Action (energy + laws) that we blithely refer to as "Evolution" (emergence ; development : progression). And It-from-Bit "quantum phenomena" are circumstantial evidence from which to infer an information foundation of physical reality*4.
↪Agent Smith doesn't seem to be a practicing Theist, but as an inquisitive philosopher, he is open to the notion of a metaphysical Logos concept to provide an axiomatic starting point for the story of information-centric Evolution. But, you and ↪180 Proof are so wary about pollution of Philosophy with Religion, that you are jumping at shadows. Relax, there are no ravening G*Ds or Demons out there coming to get you, and drag you down to a Hellish Matrix of your own imagination.
*1. Nothingness North of the North Pole :
Many scientists immediately objected to the Big Bang theory, because it reminded them of the Genesis creation myth. So, they began to conjecture materialist myths of their own : Steady State (no evidence) ; Multiverse (no evidence) ; Many Worlds (no evidence) ; beginningless & endless succession of Black Holes (no evidence). Even more incredible : Creation by god-like Aliens in a cosmic laboratory.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... aboratory/
*2. G*D :
An ambiguous spelling of the common name for a supernatural deity. The Enformationism thesis is based upon an unprovable axiom that our world is an idea in the mind of G*D. This eternal deity is not imagined in a physical human body, but in a meta-physical mathematical form, equivalent to Logos. Other names : ALL, BEING, Creator, Enformer, MIND, Nature, Reason, Source, Programmer. The eternal Whole of which all temporal things are a part is not to be feared or worshipped, but appreciated like Nature.
I refer to the logically necessary and philosophically essential First & Final Cause as G*D, rather than merely "X" the Unknown, partly out of respect. That’s because the ancients were not stupid, to infer purposeful agencies, but merely shooting in the dark. We now understand the "How" of Nature much better, but not the "Why". That inscrutable agent of Entention is what I mean by G*D.
https://blog-glossary.enformationism.info/page13.html
Note -- You can substitute physical "Momentum" for metaphysical "Entention" if it makes you feel better.
*3. A proposed new Worldview :
The Enformationism hypothesis is proposed as a possible scientific replacement for the fruitful, but aging, paradigm of Materialism. This new way of thinking about Reality suggests some counter-intuitive responses to those old puzzlers :
#. What is the world made of?
Old – Solid Matter and zippy Energy; atoms & space.
New – Immaterial Information patterns and relationships, including holistic wave/particles and our notion of location in Space/Time.
#. How does it work?
Old – By transformation of Energy into Matter, and vice-versa.
New – By transformation of raw information/data/ideas into powerful Energy and malleable Matter and curving Space and cycling Time.
#. Why does it work like that?
Old – Science doesn’t answer “Why” questions.
New – Because the physical universe is essentially an idea in a metaphysical, universal Mind.
Note -- You can substitute a Simulated Reality instead of Universal Mind, if you like. But the simulated worlds of video games always originate in the mind of the Programmer.
http://enformationism.info/enformationi ... page4.html
*4. The Foundation of Reality: Information or Quantum Mechanics? :
https://www.technologyreview.com/2009/0 ... mechanics/
It is irrelevant whether or not you portray your gap god as non-intervening or not. I could accept your position more, if you were more upfront about it and stated your 'enformer,' as 'utter speculation,' with no evidence at all, and did not try to project it, from current knowledge of quantum phenomena.. — universeness
No. If anything, I'm trying to dampen down your prejudiced incredulity level. This is not a Physics forum, so I am not claiming to have physical evidence for my Philosophical speculations about the immeasurable knowledge gap*1 before the beginning of our world. My "speculative" thesis is not about that cognitive vacuum; and it's not about Gods & Religions; but about how our own home-world works : via EnFormAction. How many times do I have to say that? The gnarly "gap god" is a figment of your fearful imagination, not a core feature of the information thesis, except as an implicit logical necessity.
How much more "upfront" can I be than to refer to my G*D concept as an "unproveable axiom"*2. I have posted the definition below many times before. Scientists, Philosophers, and Mathematicians commonly use Axioms as a premise or starting point for reasoning. The subsequent reasoning is about the ubiquity & consequence of the understanding that immaterial Information is the fundamental element of our real world. You seem to be gagging on the idea of the medicine, not the medicine itself.
Once again, I'll say that you are incredulous about a scary-image in your own mind, not mine. I don't care if you despise the notion of a World Creator. The point of my thesis is to develop (not originate) a new philosophical model of Reality, with Information instead of Matter as the basic building block. I refer to the opinions of Quantum and Information scientists to support the information-centric post-materialism paradigm, not to prove the existence of a hypothetical Programmer. However, if our world is indeed information-based, it is logical to assume that an Enformer of some kind is responsible for the ongoing process of En-Form-Action (energy + laws) that we blithely refer to as "Evolution" (emergence ; development : progression). And It-from-Bit "quantum phenomena" are circumstantial evidence from which to infer an information foundation of physical reality*4.
↪Agent Smith doesn't seem to be a practicing Theist, but as an inquisitive philosopher, he is open to the notion of a metaphysical Logos concept to provide an axiomatic starting point for the story of information-centric Evolution. But, you and ↪180 Proof are so wary about pollution of Philosophy with Religion, that you are jumping at shadows. Relax, there are no ravening G*Ds or Demons out there coming to get you, and drag you down to a Hellish Matrix of your own imagination.
*1. Nothingness North of the North Pole :
Many scientists immediately objected to the Big Bang theory, because it reminded them of the Genesis creation myth. So, they began to conjecture materialist myths of their own : Steady State (no evidence) ; Multiverse (no evidence) ; Many Worlds (no evidence) ; beginningless & endless succession of Black Holes (no evidence). Even more incredible : Creation by god-like Aliens in a cosmic laboratory.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... aboratory/
*2. G*D :
An ambiguous spelling of the common name for a supernatural deity. The Enformationism thesis is based upon an unprovable axiom that our world is an idea in the mind of G*D. This eternal deity is not imagined in a physical human body, but in a meta-physical mathematical form, equivalent to Logos. Other names : ALL, BEING, Creator, Enformer, MIND, Nature, Reason, Source, Programmer. The eternal Whole of which all temporal things are a part is not to be feared or worshipped, but appreciated like Nature.
I refer to the logically necessary and philosophically essential First & Final Cause as G*D, rather than merely "X" the Unknown, partly out of respect. That’s because the ancients were not stupid, to infer purposeful agencies, but merely shooting in the dark. We now understand the "How" of Nature much better, but not the "Why". That inscrutable agent of Entention is what I mean by G*D.
https://blog-glossary.enformationism.info/page13.html
Note -- You can substitute physical "Momentum" for metaphysical "Entention" if it makes you feel better.
*3. A proposed new Worldview :
The Enformationism hypothesis is proposed as a possible scientific replacement for the fruitful, but aging, paradigm of Materialism. This new way of thinking about Reality suggests some counter-intuitive responses to those old puzzlers :
#. What is the world made of?
Old – Solid Matter and zippy Energy; atoms & space.
New – Immaterial Information patterns and relationships, including holistic wave/particles and our notion of location in Space/Time.
#. How does it work?
Old – By transformation of Energy into Matter, and vice-versa.
New – By transformation of raw information/data/ideas into powerful Energy and malleable Matter and curving Space and cycling Time.
#. Why does it work like that?
Old – Science doesn’t answer “Why” questions.
New – Because the physical universe is essentially an idea in a metaphysical, universal Mind.
Note -- You can substitute a Simulated Reality instead of Universal Mind, if you like. But the simulated worlds of video games always originate in the mind of the Programmer.
http://enformationism.info/enformationi ... page4.html
*4. The Foundation of Reality: Information or Quantum Mechanics? :
https://www.technologyreview.com/2009/0 ... mechanics/
Re: TPF : Emergence, Physical vs Metaphysical
↪Agent Smith
I agree, I think that would be an unfair assumption. He may just be very passionate, regarding his need for an omnipotent mind to exist. Regardless of how this manifests in his psyche. This can give a lot of comfort against primal fear. — universeness
Although dispassionate & boring in person, Gnomon is passionate & evangelistic in writing, about his personal worldview, which serves as a late-blooming philosophical replacement for the religious worldview of his youth : "fear God and keep his commandments". Yet, his "need" is not for divine omnipotence, but for philosophical understanding. I suppose your "need" is for a solid tangible classical foundation to the world, which was undermined by quantum fuzzy logic.
Tu quoque, you seem to be just as passionate about defending your own implicit Materialism/Physicalism [or fill-in your favorite belief system here] worldview from false prophets. And your visceral fear of the implications of Enformationism is appropriate, even if un-founded. As an antithesis to old-fashioned Naturalism, It doesn't substitute physical Matter with spooky Spirits, but with ubiquitous mundane Information, which is both Material & Immaterial, both Physical & Metaphysical, both Real & Ideal.
That may sound confusing or spooky to you. Yet it's not recycled woo-woo mumbo-jumbo, but the novel notion of an emergent phase in the evolution of the physical world, and of metaphysical human culture ; of physiology and technology.
PS__I suppose we have established, in our dueling dialogues, that for Uni : "sh*t happens", while for Gnomon : "sh*t happens for a reason".
PPS__In Enformationism, G*D's commandments are the Laws of Nature, which we "keep", or reap the consequences.
↪Agent Smith
I agree, I think that would be an unfair assumption. He may just be very passionate, regarding his need for an omnipotent mind to exist. Regardless of how this manifests in his psyche. This can give a lot of comfort against primal fear. — universeness
Although dispassionate & boring in person, Gnomon is passionate & evangelistic in writing, about his personal worldview, which serves as a late-blooming philosophical replacement for the religious worldview of his youth : "fear God and keep his commandments". Yet, his "need" is not for divine omnipotence, but for philosophical understanding. I suppose your "need" is for a solid tangible classical foundation to the world, which was undermined by quantum fuzzy logic.
Tu quoque, you seem to be just as passionate about defending your own implicit Materialism/Physicalism [or fill-in your favorite belief system here] worldview from false prophets. And your visceral fear of the implications of Enformationism is appropriate, even if un-founded. As an antithesis to old-fashioned Naturalism, It doesn't substitute physical Matter with spooky Spirits, but with ubiquitous mundane Information, which is both Material & Immaterial, both Physical & Metaphysical, both Real & Ideal.
That may sound confusing or spooky to you. Yet it's not recycled woo-woo mumbo-jumbo, but the novel notion of an emergent phase in the evolution of the physical world, and of metaphysical human culture ; of physiology and technology.
PS__I suppose we have established, in our dueling dialogues, that for Uni : "sh*t happens", while for Gnomon : "sh*t happens for a reason".
PPS__In Enformationism, G*D's commandments are the Laws of Nature, which we "keep", or reap the consequences.
↪Agent Smith
Re: TPF : Emergence, Physical vs Metaphysical
Lazy god posits are simply too irrational for me and my atheism often reaches ignostic/igtheism levels, when someone posits yet another, first cause mind variant. — universeness
In the introduction to my new book, The Logic of Information, by philosopher Luciano Floridi, I found an attractive concept that reminds me of our dueling accusations of toxic religion. "Systemic Attractors : if a new idea looks a bit like an old idea we already have, then the old one is a magnet to which the new one is powerfully attracted, almost irresistibly. We end up thinking that 'that new' is really just like 'this old', and if we do not like 'this old' then we dislike 'that new' as well. Bad philosophy indeed, but it takes mental strength and exercise to resist such a powerful shift". But lazy thinking allows such magnetic misconceptions to overpower Reason. That's what we call "prejudice" or "implicit bias".
In our dialogues, "the old" is irrational religions in general, while "the new" is merely a logical inference from the evolving Information structure of our universe : nothing to something to energy to matter to mind to imagination. A causal sequence that logically requires an implicit-but-not-specific First Cause. I have to smile, when I think of the spooky woowoo voodoo savage rituals that you envision Gnomon practicing in his new/old "religion". Perhaps worshiping the abstract First Cause (or "First Mind") --- from which our Information-structured world emerged --- by abandoning Reason in mindless shows of subservience. Whatever your mental model of The Enformer might be, it's a "lazy god posit" passively pulled by the "Systemic Attractor" of remotely similar, but unrelated ideas. That seems to be how many prejudicial beliefs get started.
Naturalism as anti-supernaturalism and anti-preternaturalism :
"On the one hand, science holds a firm and reasonable commitment to a healthy naturalistic methodology . . . . On the other hand, contemporary science is also inextricably and now inevitably dependent on ever more complex technologies, especially Information and Communication technologies . . . . Yet such technologies are increasingly 'artificializing' or 'denaturalizing' the world, human experiences, and interaction, as well as what qualifies as real. . . . If you are a naturalist, I am afraid I believe you are mistaken. . . . Naturalism is not a bad position to hold. It is a dominating Ur-philosophical thesis . . . and a widespread faith."
The Logic of Information, Luciano Floridi, Oxford
↪Agent Smith
In the introduction to my new book, The Logic of Information, by philosopher Luciano Floridi, I found an attractive concept that reminds me of our dueling accusations of toxic religion. "Systemic Attractors : if a new idea looks a bit like an old idea we already have, then the old one is a magnet to which the new one is powerfully attracted, almost irresistibly. We end up thinking that 'that new' is really just like 'this old', and if we do not like 'this old' then we dislike 'that new' as well. Bad philosophy indeed, but it takes mental strength and exercise to resist such a powerful shift". But lazy thinking allows such magnetic misconceptions to overpower Reason. That's what we call "prejudice" or "implicit bias".
In our dialogues, "the old" is irrational religions in general, while "the new" is merely a logical inference from the evolving Information structure of our universe : nothing to something to energy to matter to mind to imagination. A causal sequence that logically requires an implicit-but-not-specific First Cause. I have to smile, when I think of the spooky woowoo voodoo savage rituals that you envision Gnomon practicing in his new/old "religion". Perhaps worshiping the abstract First Cause (or "First Mind") --- from which our Information-structured world emerged --- by abandoning Reason in mindless shows of subservience. Whatever your mental model of The Enformer might be, it's a "lazy god posit" passively pulled by the "Systemic Attractor" of remotely similar, but unrelated ideas. That seems to be how many prejudicial beliefs get started.
Naturalism as anti-supernaturalism and anti-preternaturalism :
"On the one hand, science holds a firm and reasonable commitment to a healthy naturalistic methodology . . . . On the other hand, contemporary science is also inextricably and now inevitably dependent on ever more complex technologies, especially Information and Communication technologies . . . . Yet such technologies are increasingly 'artificializing' or 'denaturalizing' the world, human experiences, and interaction, as well as what qualifies as real. . . . If you are a naturalist, I am afraid I believe you are mistaken. . . . Naturalism is not a bad position to hold. It is a dominating Ur-philosophical thesis . . . and a widespread faith."
The Logic of Information, Luciano Floridi, Oxford
↪Agent Smith
Re: TPF : Emergence, Physical vs Metaphysical
You keep struggling against the ropes you tied around your own wrists. — universeness
No. I'm merely trying to untie the ropes of anti-metaphysical prejudice that dump all non-physical notions into the anti-science (religious) waste-bin. My wrists are still wiggling to escape your doctrinal bonds. But they are somewhat easier to deal with than ↪180 Proof's dogmatic repression of philosophical speculation. That's why I have continued to dialog with you, and not with him. But, I see that you are getting weary of shooting down the same old intangible spooky spy balloons.
The positive aspect of our dialogue is the unraveling exercise your meaning-twisting accusations give me. They force me to expand my philosophical research into unfamiliar areas.The negative side of the physics vs metaphysics debate is that it always comes back to physical evidence, and neglects rational or circumstantial evidence (logical inference from patterns). By "denying the legitimacy" of metaphysics as a way to understand reality, you legislate away all of my arguments, instead of dealing with them. Which, in a court of law, is prejudicial to the witness.
The Problems of Metaphysics: the “New” Metaphysics :
An anti-metaphysician in the contemporary sense is not a philosopher who denies that there are objects of the sorts that an earlier philosopher might have said formed the subject-matter of metaphysics (first causes, things that do not change, universals, substances, …), but rather a philosopher who denies the legitimacy of the question whether there are objects of those sorts.
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/metaphysics/
No. I'm merely trying to untie the ropes of anti-metaphysical prejudice that dump all non-physical notions into the anti-science (religious) waste-bin. My wrists are still wiggling to escape your doctrinal bonds. But they are somewhat easier to deal with than ↪180 Proof's dogmatic repression of philosophical speculation. That's why I have continued to dialog with you, and not with him. But, I see that you are getting weary of shooting down the same old intangible spooky spy balloons.
The positive aspect of our dialogue is the unraveling exercise your meaning-twisting accusations give me. They force me to expand my philosophical research into unfamiliar areas.The negative side of the physics vs metaphysics debate is that it always comes back to physical evidence, and neglects rational or circumstantial evidence (logical inference from patterns). By "denying the legitimacy" of metaphysics as a way to understand reality, you legislate away all of my arguments, instead of dealing with them. Which, in a court of law, is prejudicial to the witness.
The Problems of Metaphysics: the “New” Metaphysics :
An anti-metaphysician in the contemporary sense is not a philosopher who denies that there are objects of the sorts that an earlier philosopher might have said formed the subject-matter of metaphysics (first causes, things that do not change, universals, substances, …), but rather a philosopher who denies the legitimacy of the question whether there are objects of those sorts.
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/metaphysics/
Re: TPF : Emergence, Physical vs Metaphysical
I hope that your first quote above bears some useful fruit for both of us, as we both continue to seek truth.
I think I have faced your arguments head on and have not merely dismissed your speculations out of hand. — universeness
Yes. Thanks for engaging in an extended dialogue, which is probably frustrating for you, due to the language barrier. The basic problem is that we assign different meanings to key words, such as "Emergent". For me that is a Holistic Philosophical concept, but apparently for you its a Reductive Scientific term, even though there is no physical evidence, only inferences & opinions. Also, "Deism" for me is a non-religious philosophical worldview; but for you there is no significant difference from "Theism". Hence, most of your "head-on" answers to my arguments have been off-target.
When I started engaging with ↪180 Proof, I soon felt like I was trapped in a Joe McCarthy "witch hunt" : Q. "are you now, or have you ever been a Communist (Theist ; pseudo-scientist) ; A. No sir, I'm a Socialist (Deist ; meta-physicalist) ; Q. "Same difference" (i.e. no difference). Consequently, anything I might say in my defense could serve as linguistic evidence against me. In my non-elite, common-sense, language, as for the ancient Greeks, Metaphysics (ideas, not things) is what philosophy is all about. It focuses, not on the furniture of the world, but on its design.
I have found that a common understanding of the Philosophical endeavor -- on this forum -- is that it came to an end in the 17th century, when empirical results began to replace theoretical & theistic models. And its true that Philosophy, as profession, went into a long decline, and lost its aura of authority to Physics. Academic Philosophy began to devolve into endless pointless linguistic debates about finer & finer points of abstruse nonsense. But in the 20th century, both Science & Philosophy, were forced to grapple with bizarre concepts that would have boggled the mind of Isaac Newton --- whose side passions, besides Astronomy & Mathematics, were Alchemy (pre-Chemistry) & biblical mysteries.
Anyway, my philosophical ideas on this forum come primarily from Quantum & Information theorists, who are trying to make sense of a Reality that is influenced by its observers, and cannot be dissected down to tangible atoms of matter. So, I have lept over the "modern" phase of Philosophy, and landed in the quagmire of post-quantum reality, where the Whole is more-than the sum of its Reductive parts. It also raises debatable questions regarding what we can "know" about Reality under the surface impressions of our 5 senses, and our technically-extended senses. Fortunately, Philosophy's only tool is the 6th sense of Reason, which is well-adapted to "see" whole Systems and non-physical Functions.
Philosophy Has Lost Its Way :
In the world of academia, philosophy has become this weird playground of technicality and complexity that separates the curious masses from the intellectual elite.
https://moretothat.com/philosophy-has-lost-its-way/
When Philosophy Lost Its Way :
Having adopted the same structural form as the sciences, it’s no wonder philosophy fell prey to physics envy and feelings of inadequacy. Philosophy adopted the scientific modus operandi of knowledge production, but failed to match the sciences in terms of making progress in describing the world. . . . . Having become specialists, we have lost sight of the whole.
https://archive.nytimes.com/opinionator ... d=fb-share
The weirdness of quantum mechanics forces scientists to confront philosophy :
Despite the tremendous success of quantum physics, scientists and philosophers still disagree on what it’s telling us about the nature of reality. Central to the dispute is whether the theory is describing the world as it is or is merely a mathematical model. Attempts to reconcile the theory with reality have led physicists to some strange places, forcing scientists to grapple with matters of philosophy.
https://bigthink.com/13-8/quantum-mechanics-philosophy/
↪Agent Smith
I think I have faced your arguments head on and have not merely dismissed your speculations out of hand. — universeness
Yes. Thanks for engaging in an extended dialogue, which is probably frustrating for you, due to the language barrier. The basic problem is that we assign different meanings to key words, such as "Emergent". For me that is a Holistic Philosophical concept, but apparently for you its a Reductive Scientific term, even though there is no physical evidence, only inferences & opinions. Also, "Deism" for me is a non-religious philosophical worldview; but for you there is no significant difference from "Theism". Hence, most of your "head-on" answers to my arguments have been off-target.
When I started engaging with ↪180 Proof, I soon felt like I was trapped in a Joe McCarthy "witch hunt" : Q. "are you now, or have you ever been a Communist (Theist ; pseudo-scientist) ; A. No sir, I'm a Socialist (Deist ; meta-physicalist) ; Q. "Same difference" (i.e. no difference). Consequently, anything I might say in my defense could serve as linguistic evidence against me. In my non-elite, common-sense, language, as for the ancient Greeks, Metaphysics (ideas, not things) is what philosophy is all about. It focuses, not on the furniture of the world, but on its design.
I have found that a common understanding of the Philosophical endeavor -- on this forum -- is that it came to an end in the 17th century, when empirical results began to replace theoretical & theistic models. And its true that Philosophy, as profession, went into a long decline, and lost its aura of authority to Physics. Academic Philosophy began to devolve into endless pointless linguistic debates about finer & finer points of abstruse nonsense. But in the 20th century, both Science & Philosophy, were forced to grapple with bizarre concepts that would have boggled the mind of Isaac Newton --- whose side passions, besides Astronomy & Mathematics, were Alchemy (pre-Chemistry) & biblical mysteries.
Anyway, my philosophical ideas on this forum come primarily from Quantum & Information theorists, who are trying to make sense of a Reality that is influenced by its observers, and cannot be dissected down to tangible atoms of matter. So, I have lept over the "modern" phase of Philosophy, and landed in the quagmire of post-quantum reality, where the Whole is more-than the sum of its Reductive parts. It also raises debatable questions regarding what we can "know" about Reality under the surface impressions of our 5 senses, and our technically-extended senses. Fortunately, Philosophy's only tool is the 6th sense of Reason, which is well-adapted to "see" whole Systems and non-physical Functions.
Philosophy Has Lost Its Way :
In the world of academia, philosophy has become this weird playground of technicality and complexity that separates the curious masses from the intellectual elite.
https://moretothat.com/philosophy-has-lost-its-way/
When Philosophy Lost Its Way :
Having adopted the same structural form as the sciences, it’s no wonder philosophy fell prey to physics envy and feelings of inadequacy. Philosophy adopted the scientific modus operandi of knowledge production, but failed to match the sciences in terms of making progress in describing the world. . . . . Having become specialists, we have lost sight of the whole.
https://archive.nytimes.com/opinionator ... d=fb-share
The weirdness of quantum mechanics forces scientists to confront philosophy :
Despite the tremendous success of quantum physics, scientists and philosophers still disagree on what it’s telling us about the nature of reality. Central to the dispute is whether the theory is describing the world as it is or is merely a mathematical model. Attempts to reconcile the theory with reality have led physicists to some strange places, forcing scientists to grapple with matters of philosophy.
https://bigthink.com/13-8/quantum-mechanics-philosophy/
↪Agent Smith
Re: TPF : Emergence, Physical vs Metaphysical
The notion of emergent phenomena is closely related to holism. Am I correct? — Agent Smith
Yes. "Holism" and "Emergence" are essential concepts in the thesis of Enformationism, which derives from the epistemological (what can we know?) challenges of Quantum Entanglement and Complex Systems in general. The Santa Fe Institute was founded specifically to study Complexity via holistic methods, instead of the traditional reductive methods of classical Science.
But don't take my word for it. Here's some other opinions :
Strong Emergence Is Holism, Not Magic :
To a reductionist, this seems magical: How do qualitatively different properties “emerge” (in irony quotes) from complex aggregates of fundamental particles of matter? Proponents of strong emergence (or holism), however, argue both that the potential for higher-level, qualitatively distinct properties is written into the laws of nature (laws of emergence, so to speak) and that what look like relatively mundane or boring fundamental particles of nature actually have immense creative potential to instantiate higher-level entities and properties when arranged in complex ways.
https://www.zacharyfruhling.com/philoso ... -not-magic
Holism, reductionism and emergence :
Emergence is the opposite of reduction. Holism is the opposite of separability.
The difference is subtle, but emergence and reduction are concerned with concepts, properties, types of phenomena, being deducible from other (lower level) ones, while holism is concerned with the behaviour of parts being independent from relational aspects, or their pertaining to a whole.
Following holism, the whole system should be considered, not only its parts and their interactions. A typical example is entanglement in quantum mechanics. That does not mean that new irreducible higher level concepts have to be used to address the whole system.
https://philosophy.stackexchange.com/qu ... -emergence
Holism in science :
Holism in science, holistic science, or methodological holism is an approach to research that emphasizes the study of complex systems. Systems are approached as coherent wholes whose component parts are best understood in context and in relation to both each other and to the whole. Holism typically stands in contrast with reductionism, which describes systems by dividing them into smaller components in order to understand them through their elemental properties.
Proponents claim that Holistic science is naturally suited to subjects such as ecology, biology, physics and the social sciences, where complex, non-linear interactions are the norm. These are systems where emergent properties arise at the level of the whole that cannot be predicted by focusing on the parts alone, which may make mainstream, reductionist science ill-equipped to provide understanding beyond a certain level.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holism_in_science
What they say about us ... This is the Santa Fe Institute, a sort of Justice League of renegade geeks, where teams of scientists from disparate fields study the complexity of evolving worlds.
https://www.santafe.edu/about/overview
Yes. "Holism" and "Emergence" are essential concepts in the thesis of Enformationism, which derives from the epistemological (what can we know?) challenges of Quantum Entanglement and Complex Systems in general. The Santa Fe Institute was founded specifically to study Complexity via holistic methods, instead of the traditional reductive methods of classical Science.
But don't take my word for it. Here's some other opinions :
Strong Emergence Is Holism, Not Magic :
To a reductionist, this seems magical: How do qualitatively different properties “emerge” (in irony quotes) from complex aggregates of fundamental particles of matter? Proponents of strong emergence (or holism), however, argue both that the potential for higher-level, qualitatively distinct properties is written into the laws of nature (laws of emergence, so to speak) and that what look like relatively mundane or boring fundamental particles of nature actually have immense creative potential to instantiate higher-level entities and properties when arranged in complex ways.
https://www.zacharyfruhling.com/philoso ... -not-magic
Holism, reductionism and emergence :
Emergence is the opposite of reduction. Holism is the opposite of separability.
The difference is subtle, but emergence and reduction are concerned with concepts, properties, types of phenomena, being deducible from other (lower level) ones, while holism is concerned with the behaviour of parts being independent from relational aspects, or their pertaining to a whole.
Following holism, the whole system should be considered, not only its parts and their interactions. A typical example is entanglement in quantum mechanics. That does not mean that new irreducible higher level concepts have to be used to address the whole system.
https://philosophy.stackexchange.com/qu ... -emergence
Holism in science :
Holism in science, holistic science, or methodological holism is an approach to research that emphasizes the study of complex systems. Systems are approached as coherent wholes whose component parts are best understood in context and in relation to both each other and to the whole. Holism typically stands in contrast with reductionism, which describes systems by dividing them into smaller components in order to understand them through their elemental properties.
Proponents claim that Holistic science is naturally suited to subjects such as ecology, biology, physics and the social sciences, where complex, non-linear interactions are the norm. These are systems where emergent properties arise at the level of the whole that cannot be predicted by focusing on the parts alone, which may make mainstream, reductionist science ill-equipped to provide understanding beyond a certain level.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holism_in_science
What they say about us ... This is the Santa Fe Institute, a sort of Justice League of renegade geeks, where teams of scientists from disparate fields study the complexity of evolving worlds.
https://www.santafe.edu/about/overview
Re: TPF : Emergence, Physical vs Metaphysical
I perceived no language barrier between us, and I find such camouflaged insults, rather puerile. — universeness
The insult is in your interpretation. FWIW, I never intend to offend. The wry remark was intended as an ironic all-too-true joke-poke, to be accepted with philosophical grace. Yet I anticipated that you might take the metaphor literally, just as you do with so many of my other "puerile" multi-value*1 tropes that affront your personal two-value worldview. BTW, if I intended to insult you, I wouldn't have to "camouflage" it. My personal worldview is fundamentally different from yours, so an implication in one "language" does not translate to the other.
The irony is that you "perceived no language barrier", when our dialects are so far apart as to convey opposite meanings. The tongue-in-cheek-joke was referring to the same old barrier-to-understanding that prompted Voltaire to advise, for all who engage in philosophical dialogues, “If you want to converse with me, first define your terms”,. Unfortunately, for those with Black vs White mindsets, there is no common ground for defining terms across the umbra.
*1. BothAnd : a multivalued worldview, as opposed to an Either/Or attitude toward truth.
The insult is in your interpretation. FWIW, I never intend to offend. The wry remark was intended as an ironic all-too-true joke-poke, to be accepted with philosophical grace. Yet I anticipated that you might take the metaphor literally, just as you do with so many of my other "puerile" multi-value*1 tropes that affront your personal two-value worldview. BTW, if I intended to insult you, I wouldn't have to "camouflage" it. My personal worldview is fundamentally different from yours, so an implication in one "language" does not translate to the other.
The irony is that you "perceived no language barrier", when our dialects are so far apart as to convey opposite meanings. The tongue-in-cheek-joke was referring to the same old barrier-to-understanding that prompted Voltaire to advise, for all who engage in philosophical dialogues, “If you want to converse with me, first define your terms”,. Unfortunately, for those with Black vs White mindsets, there is no common ground for defining terms across the umbra.
*1. BothAnd : a multivalued worldview, as opposed to an Either/Or attitude toward truth.
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