Could consciousness be a form of energy like the rest? Could the sensation of existing simply be energy organised in a particular relationship to matter, or to it's other forms, or to both? — Benj96
I got side-tracked from your original question, by push-back from those who feel that sub-atomic Physics and Meta-Physics are inappropriate reference-material for a (linguistic???) philosophical discussion.
Have you learned anything from this thread? Have you come closer to an answer to the question about physically or metaphorically equating Energy & Consciousness? FWIW, I have given that relationship some thought, as expressed in the ruminations below.
Mind as a Causal Force :
Functions don't exist apart from their physical systems, but they are clearly not properties of any single component. They also don't exist in isolation. For example, the function of a hammer is defined in relation to hands & nails. Likewise, a Mind is a function of whole brains, not neurons –-- of systems, not cogs. Yet, it seems that anything physical has the potential to produce Mind, but only when organized & actualized into complex mechanisms that act together in concert for collective goals & purposes.
Hence, Mind is an emergent quality of physical systems, yet is not a physical property of any of their atoms or subsystems. Matter is what a brain is made of, but Mind is what it does. Functions are also dynamic & emergent, not static features of matter. They require time & change to reveal their immaterial existence.
If we begin with the current materialistic scientific paradigm --- that reality is created by self-existent physical energy that somehow regulates itself (laws) --- then the emergence of non-physical Mind will remain a mystery. But, if we place Mind at the beginning, instead of the end of evolution, the story makes more sense. Mind is creative in the abstract, but it is also a causal force --- like a processing program --- in the concrete world. Mind manipulates information, which is the essence of energy.
https://bothandblog2.enformationism.info/page70.html
mass-energy-information equivalence principle :
A recent conjecture, called the mass-energy-information equivalence principle, proposed that information is equivalent to mass and energy and exists as a separate state of matter.
https://pubs.aip.org/aip/sci/article/20 ... ass-energy
TPF : Consciousness a form of Energy
Re: TPF : Consciousness a form of Energy
Vopson's paper here reads like a wacky sci-fi premise, projecting an exponential impossibility. How could information mass replace the normal mass of the Earth because of computers, yet register no measurable change? My question would be, where or how does the mass of this information reside in time and space as a physical entity -- what particles carry it? — Nils Loc
You seem to interpret Vopson's "premise" as a scenario of "weird" massless Information somehow magically transforming into spooky "information mass". I don't read it that way. I think he was saying that information is naturally converted into "normal mass". Presumably in a manner similar to the way massless Photons convert their Potential energy into the measurable mass we call Matter : E=MC^2.
Admittedly, Einstein's equation doesn't make sense in terms of Classical Physics. And he didn't specify the steps between Potential and Actual. All we know is that the math adds up. Which is why his radical new Physics of Relativity --- contra Newton's Absolute Physics--- was grudgingly accepted by physicists.
As to the question of "no measurable change", I suppose the scientists are dealing with the same Measurement Problem*1 of quantum physics. The math deals with Statistical possibilities, not Actual observable facts. Once they figure-out how to create an experimental set-up, the end product could just be weighted on a mass spectrometer ; an indirect measurement.
Please note that some professional physicists*2 are now equating massless Energy, not just with Matter, but with massless mental/mathematical Information. It may be counter-intuitive, but do you really think that scientific/philosophical hypothesis qualifies as "a wacky sci-fi premise".
PS___ A massless Photon is not a particle of Matter until it slows down and gains weight, so to speak. Until then, it's merely a statistical abstraction, and undetectable. Perhaps a massless Bit of Information is also nothing-but mathematical/mental Theory until it gains velocity and mass in weird physics experiments. :joke:
*1. The Measurement Problem :
Standard quantum mechanics accounts for what happens when you measure a quantum system: essentially, the measurement causes the system's multiple possible states to randomly “collapse” into one definite state. But this accounting doesn't define what constitutes a measurement—hence, the measurement problem.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... e-reality/
*2. American Institute of Physics :
A recent conjecture, called the mass-energy-information equivalence principle, proposed that information is equivalent to mass and energy and exists as a separate state of matter. In other words, stored information has mass and can be converted into energy, and a full hard drive is marginally heavier than an empty one.
https://pubs.aip.org/aip/sci/article/20 ... ass-energy
About AIP Publishing :
A wholly owned not-for-profit subsidiary of the American Institute of Physics (AIP), AIP Publishing’s mission is to advance, promote, and serve the physical sciences for the benefit of humanity by empowering researchers and breaking down barriers to open, equitable research communication. . . . the AIP flagship magazine Physics Today provides high-quality, rigorously peer-reviewed research and insights across the physical sciences,
Note --- A less trivializing meaning of "conjecture" is hypothesis : Conjecture is an idea, hypothesis is a conjecture that can be tested by experiment or observation,
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5389200/
You seem to interpret Vopson's "premise" as a scenario of "weird" massless Information somehow magically transforming into spooky "information mass". I don't read it that way. I think he was saying that information is naturally converted into "normal mass". Presumably in a manner similar to the way massless Photons convert their Potential energy into the measurable mass we call Matter : E=MC^2.
Admittedly, Einstein's equation doesn't make sense in terms of Classical Physics. And he didn't specify the steps between Potential and Actual. All we know is that the math adds up. Which is why his radical new Physics of Relativity --- contra Newton's Absolute Physics--- was grudgingly accepted by physicists.
As to the question of "no measurable change", I suppose the scientists are dealing with the same Measurement Problem*1 of quantum physics. The math deals with Statistical possibilities, not Actual observable facts. Once they figure-out how to create an experimental set-up, the end product could just be weighted on a mass spectrometer ; an indirect measurement.
Please note that some professional physicists*2 are now equating massless Energy, not just with Matter, but with massless mental/mathematical Information. It may be counter-intuitive, but do you really think that scientific/philosophical hypothesis qualifies as "a wacky sci-fi premise".
PS___ A massless Photon is not a particle of Matter until it slows down and gains weight, so to speak. Until then, it's merely a statistical abstraction, and undetectable. Perhaps a massless Bit of Information is also nothing-but mathematical/mental Theory until it gains velocity and mass in weird physics experiments. :joke:
*1. The Measurement Problem :
Standard quantum mechanics accounts for what happens when you measure a quantum system: essentially, the measurement causes the system's multiple possible states to randomly “collapse” into one definite state. But this accounting doesn't define what constitutes a measurement—hence, the measurement problem.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... e-reality/
*2. American Institute of Physics :
A recent conjecture, called the mass-energy-information equivalence principle, proposed that information is equivalent to mass and energy and exists as a separate state of matter. In other words, stored information has mass and can be converted into energy, and a full hard drive is marginally heavier than an empty one.
https://pubs.aip.org/aip/sci/article/20 ... ass-energy
About AIP Publishing :
A wholly owned not-for-profit subsidiary of the American Institute of Physics (AIP), AIP Publishing’s mission is to advance, promote, and serve the physical sciences for the benefit of humanity by empowering researchers and breaking down barriers to open, equitable research communication. . . . the AIP flagship magazine Physics Today provides high-quality, rigorously peer-reviewed research and insights across the physical sciences,
Note --- A less trivializing meaning of "conjecture" is hypothesis : Conjecture is an idea, hypothesis is a conjecture that can be tested by experiment or observation,
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5389200/
Re: TPF : Consciousness a form of Energy
Am done pestering you and offer an apology to Benj96 for any offense. I just can't understand or follow what is being said. — Nils Loc
That's OK. No apology needed. It's just par for the course on TPF. I appreciate your honest & humble efforts. Some posters seem less than sincere in their supercilious snarky retorts.
Many of the philosophically astute posters on this forum are limited by their outdated Classical Newtonian Physics (commonsense) worldview (Materialism). Quantum Physics defies commonsense though, and sounds non-sensical to laymen, who have not taken the time to learn how the sub-atomic foundations of material reality are different from the macro (human-scale) world of the five senses. That limitation is not a problem for 98% of the human population. But those who study Science and Philosophy --- especially Quantum & Information Theory --- would be handicapped by a 17th century understanding of the physical world.
Quantum physics studies the unseen world beneath our animal senses. Apparently, you have to be a little weird to stick your mind into such dark places.
Quantum Physics is bullshit :
Lawrence Krauss has the best response - "So arguing that it doesn't make sense to you, is . . . . based on the assumption that you know what is sensible in advance. We don't know what is sensible in advance. Until we explore the world around us. Our common sense derives from the fact that we evolved on the savannah in Africa to avoid lions. Not to understand quantum mechanics, for example. As I have often said, common sense deductions might suggest that you cannot be in two places at once. That is crazy. But of course not only can an electron be but it is. It doesn't make sense because we didn't evolve to know about it, we've learned about it. We forced our idea of common sense to change, its called learning."
https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/c ... _bullshit/
Quantum mechanics is a physical theory developed in the 1920s to account for the behavior of matter on the atomic scale. It has subsequently been developed into arguably the most empirically successful theory in the history of physics.
https://iep.utm.edu/int-qm/
That's OK. No apology needed. It's just par for the course on TPF. I appreciate your honest & humble efforts. Some posters seem less than sincere in their supercilious snarky retorts.
Many of the philosophically astute posters on this forum are limited by their outdated Classical Newtonian Physics (commonsense) worldview (Materialism). Quantum Physics defies commonsense though, and sounds non-sensical to laymen, who have not taken the time to learn how the sub-atomic foundations of material reality are different from the macro (human-scale) world of the five senses. That limitation is not a problem for 98% of the human population. But those who study Science and Philosophy --- especially Quantum & Information Theory --- would be handicapped by a 17th century understanding of the physical world.
Quantum physics studies the unseen world beneath our animal senses. Apparently, you have to be a little weird to stick your mind into such dark places.
Quantum Physics is bullshit :
Lawrence Krauss has the best response - "So arguing that it doesn't make sense to you, is . . . . based on the assumption that you know what is sensible in advance. We don't know what is sensible in advance. Until we explore the world around us. Our common sense derives from the fact that we evolved on the savannah in Africa to avoid lions. Not to understand quantum mechanics, for example. As I have often said, common sense deductions might suggest that you cannot be in two places at once. That is crazy. But of course not only can an electron be but it is. It doesn't make sense because we didn't evolve to know about it, we've learned about it. We forced our idea of common sense to change, its called learning."
https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/c ... _bullshit/
Quantum mechanics is a physical theory developed in the 1920s to account for the behavior of matter on the atomic scale. It has subsequently been developed into arguably the most empirically successful theory in the history of physics.
https://iep.utm.edu/int-qm/
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