For the very simple reason that if numbers are real, but not material, then there are real things that are not material. The intellectual contortions that modern philosophers perform to avoid this conclusion are striking. That SciAm article you linked - very good article - says:
there are some important objections to (platonic) realism. If mathematical objects really exist, their properties are certainly very peculiar. — Wayfarer
Coincidentally, I was just this morning skimming Terrence Deacon's book Incomplete Nature, which discusses the causal "Absences" (possibilities ; potentials) in the world. The term "Platonic Realism" caught my roving eye, because I had always associated Mr. P with Idealism. So, I looked it up. Apparently, it's a middle position between Subjective Idealism and Objective Realism.
Cosmology & anthropology tell us that the physical/material Universe existed for billions of Earth-years before subjective/reflective minds emerged, to "see" what can't be seen. So, matter/energy existed objectively before anyone was capable of abstracting physical stuff into mental ideas. Hence, Subjective Idealism would only make sense if "god is always around in the quad" to be the subjective observer/imaginer sustaining the world-idea.
Of course, that notion will not fly for Atheist/Materialists. But from the agnostic position of the Enformationism thesis, the hypothetical Enformer/Programmer/Creator fills the role of sustainer, by creating an evolutionary algorithm, which encodes the programmer's intentions into the Laws/Norms of Nature. One set of those natural "laws" would be the Logic of Physics, which we abstracting creatures interpret as Mathematics. Those mathematical "laws" are ideal/mental, but independent of late-emerging human observers.
Deacon's "Absences" may be construed as the Programmer's intentions, that those of us inside the program infer as invisible "Causes" & Potentials" in the real world. Which are also the invisible logical "Structure" of the physical world, that scientists & mathematicians infer, but cannot see. Of course, these speculations are just philosophical metaphors for thinking about the immaterial aspects of Reality that we call Ideas, Laws, Logic, Cause & such. Such notions are real only in the sense of Platonic Realism : "real but not material".
Platonic Realism :
In other words, reality exists independent of anyone's perception or reasoning. Objects are in existence regardless of someone's observations of that object. In contrast to realism, subjective idealism argues that only minds exist because everything depends on the mind (the subjective perceiver).
https://study.com/academy/lesson/platon ... uence.html
Platonic realism is the philosophical position that there are abstract objects, such as numbers, ideas, and mathematical objects, that exist independently of the physical world.
https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-diffe ... ic-realism
TPF : Hard Problem of Consciousness
Re: TPF : Hard Problem of Consciousness
You talk of weaving together the disjunctions of science and philosophy; can you name a specific problem that Enformaction is attacking? — ucarr
Historically, modern Science emerged from the traditions of ancient Philosophy. But in the interim, Religion claimed authority over both. When the Enlightenment gave birth to Empirical Science, it threw-out the philosophical baby with the bath-water. The Materialism and Scientism found on this forum are the off-spring of that "disjunction" between Ideal & Real worldviews. EFA is, in part, an attempt to heal the rift between the science of Matter, and the science of Mind.
Philosophy and Its Contrast with Science
Science is about contingent facts or truths; philosophy is often about that but is also about necessary truths (if they exist)
You say math is theoretical; some components of pure math are theoretical; to claim math in general is theoretical is, to my thinking, like saying language in general is theoretical. — ucarr
Both Math and Language are theoretical in conception (principles), but practical in application (details).
Theoretical Philosophy is the study of the principles for human knowledge, the development of the sciences and the basis for scientific knowledge, the principles of thought, argumentation and communication, metaphysics and the history of the subject itself.
https://www.fil.lu.se/en/department/sub ... hilosophy/
You talk of disciplines both empirical and theoretical inhabiting one, universal substance. Such language, contrary to your arguments toward establishing an immaterial ground for existence (it from bit), suggest a largely unexamined, foundational belief existence is grounded within the material (I know, the merger is intentional, that is, during those moments when it strikes your fancy). — ucarr
The "substance" I was referring to is essential, not material. In my thesis, that "substance" is identified with Generic Information, as implied by physicist John A. Wheeler's philosophically influential "it from bit" postulation, which has been refined & expanded in recent years by physicist Paul Davies, and the Santa Fe Institute. From that perspective, existence is "grounded" in dynamic Potential, not inert Dirt.
Substance Monism. The most distinctive aspect of Spinoza's system is his substance monism; that is, his claim that one infinite substance—God or Nature—is the only substance that exists.
https://iep.utm.edu/spinoz-m/
You turn the rapier point around to me when you endorse both_and over either_or. My retort is to declare "a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush." — ucarr
A bird in hand is an actuality ; birds in a bush are merely possibilities. Science studies actuality ; Philosophy studies possibilities. My BothAnd philosophy combines dual aspects of the world : the here & now materiality, and the future & past ideality : not yet real or no longer real. The point being that Either/Or is reductive & eliminative, while BothAnd is holistic & constructive.
I know that materialism rendered a holy of holies becomes a death trap. At the other end of the spectrum, skittering around, spewing glib, scientific catchphrases scintillating with the current cachet in smartypants verbiage becomes another death trap. — ucarr
Is that your disdainful view of philosophical speculation?
.
Historically, modern Science emerged from the traditions of ancient Philosophy. But in the interim, Religion claimed authority over both. When the Enlightenment gave birth to Empirical Science, it threw-out the philosophical baby with the bath-water. The Materialism and Scientism found on this forum are the off-spring of that "disjunction" between Ideal & Real worldviews. EFA is, in part, an attempt to heal the rift between the science of Matter, and the science of Mind.
Philosophy and Its Contrast with Science
Science is about contingent facts or truths; philosophy is often about that but is also about necessary truths (if they exist)
You say math is theoretical; some components of pure math are theoretical; to claim math in general is theoretical is, to my thinking, like saying language in general is theoretical. — ucarr
Both Math and Language are theoretical in conception (principles), but practical in application (details).
Theoretical Philosophy is the study of the principles for human knowledge, the development of the sciences and the basis for scientific knowledge, the principles of thought, argumentation and communication, metaphysics and the history of the subject itself.
https://www.fil.lu.se/en/department/sub ... hilosophy/
You talk of disciplines both empirical and theoretical inhabiting one, universal substance. Such language, contrary to your arguments toward establishing an immaterial ground for existence (it from bit), suggest a largely unexamined, foundational belief existence is grounded within the material (I know, the merger is intentional, that is, during those moments when it strikes your fancy). — ucarr
The "substance" I was referring to is essential, not material. In my thesis, that "substance" is identified with Generic Information, as implied by physicist John A. Wheeler's philosophically influential "it from bit" postulation, which has been refined & expanded in recent years by physicist Paul Davies, and the Santa Fe Institute. From that perspective, existence is "grounded" in dynamic Potential, not inert Dirt.
Substance Monism. The most distinctive aspect of Spinoza's system is his substance monism; that is, his claim that one infinite substance—God or Nature—is the only substance that exists.
https://iep.utm.edu/spinoz-m/
You turn the rapier point around to me when you endorse both_and over either_or. My retort is to declare "a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush." — ucarr
A bird in hand is an actuality ; birds in a bush are merely possibilities. Science studies actuality ; Philosophy studies possibilities. My BothAnd philosophy combines dual aspects of the world : the here & now materiality, and the future & past ideality : not yet real or no longer real. The point being that Either/Or is reductive & eliminative, while BothAnd is holistic & constructive.
I know that materialism rendered a holy of holies becomes a death trap. At the other end of the spectrum, skittering around, spewing glib, scientific catchphrases scintillating with the current cachet in smartypants verbiage becomes another death trap. — ucarr
Is that your disdainful view of philosophical speculation?
.
Re: TPF : Hard Problem of Consciousness
How about "immaterial subjects" in the sense of immaterial ideas abstracted from the objective material world — Gnomon
I'm fine with that. — Relativist
I suspect that --- for fear of straying into the seductive mindset of spooky Spirituality --- those who espouse the metaphysical doctrine of Materialism dare not use their imaginative faculty (Reason) to infer intangible invisible subjective abstractions, that exist only in the matterless, and unverifiable, realm of Ideas, Concepts, Thoughts & Fantasies.
However, as an amateur philosopher, with no job or tenure to project, I feel free to follow the evidence of inference wherever it leads ; yea, unto the shadow of Religion, that enthralls the "weak" minds of millions around the world. Gods & ghosts are indeed "immaterial objects". But so are Logic & Math & Reason itself ; "reified" as Abstract Nouns : "a noun denoting an idea, quality, or state rather than a concrete object". Such as Love, Beauty, Honesty, Democracy, and yes Consciousness.
All of those immaterial concepts are held dearly by some people, despite their immateriality, and the implication of some kind of parallel existence in a Platonic realm. So, I ask myself : am I one of those gullible "anti-realists", who can't discern the difference between an abstraction and an actuality? Are you "fine" with that kind of subjective imagination? Some on this forum are appalled at the conceit that immaterial abstractions could exist in a material world.
↪Wayfarer
I'm fine with that. — Relativist
I suspect that --- for fear of straying into the seductive mindset of spooky Spirituality --- those who espouse the metaphysical doctrine of Materialism dare not use their imaginative faculty (Reason) to infer intangible invisible subjective abstractions, that exist only in the matterless, and unverifiable, realm of Ideas, Concepts, Thoughts & Fantasies.
However, as an amateur philosopher, with no job or tenure to project, I feel free to follow the evidence of inference wherever it leads ; yea, unto the shadow of Religion, that enthralls the "weak" minds of millions around the world. Gods & ghosts are indeed "immaterial objects". But so are Logic & Math & Reason itself ; "reified" as Abstract Nouns : "a noun denoting an idea, quality, or state rather than a concrete object". Such as Love, Beauty, Honesty, Democracy, and yes Consciousness.
All of those immaterial concepts are held dearly by some people, despite their immateriality, and the implication of some kind of parallel existence in a Platonic realm. So, I ask myself : am I one of those gullible "anti-realists", who can't discern the difference between an abstraction and an actuality? Are you "fine" with that kind of subjective imagination? Some on this forum are appalled at the conceit that immaterial abstractions could exist in a material world.
↪Wayfarer
Re: TPF : Hard Problem of Consciousness
Why specifically the formulation of growing self-awareness? — Tom Storm
If the material universe popped into existence with a "bang", can we imagine that, like a planted seed, it came pre-set with un-realized Potentials that took eons to mature (actualize) into the complex cosmos we humans are now scanning with our far-seeing technological eye-extensions? The Webb space-scope is said to be looking back to the beginning of the universe, even as it reflects our insignificance to the near-infinite bubble of being that was born in a Planck-scale bit of possibility.
Was "awareness" a property or quality of the nascent cosmos? If not, how did sentience & consciousness emerge from an explosion of space & time & matter & energy? Is it not reasonable to say that there is a "growing awareness" or that the "cosmos has, eventually become aware of itself", only in the last few millennia of evolution? Is it possible that Awareness evolved, along with Life and Mind, from an insentient & lifeless state of fecund oblivion?
Of course, such poetic imagery is forbidden for pragmatic science, but is a bit of creative license allowed on a philosophy forum?
Oblivion : the state of being unaware or unconscious of what is happening.
↪Wayfarer
If the material universe popped into existence with a "bang", can we imagine that, like a planted seed, it came pre-set with un-realized Potentials that took eons to mature (actualize) into the complex cosmos we humans are now scanning with our far-seeing technological eye-extensions? The Webb space-scope is said to be looking back to the beginning of the universe, even as it reflects our insignificance to the near-infinite bubble of being that was born in a Planck-scale bit of possibility.
Was "awareness" a property or quality of the nascent cosmos? If not, how did sentience & consciousness emerge from an explosion of space & time & matter & energy? Is it not reasonable to say that there is a "growing awareness" or that the "cosmos has, eventually become aware of itself", only in the last few millennia of evolution? Is it possible that Awareness evolved, along with Life and Mind, from an insentient & lifeless state of fecund oblivion?
Of course, such poetic imagery is forbidden for pragmatic science, but is a bit of creative license allowed on a philosophy forum?
Oblivion : the state of being unaware or unconscious of what is happening.
↪Wayfarer
Re: TPF : Hard Problem of Consciousness
My own speculative tendencies wouldn't consider human life to be significant enough to be rated as a 'growing awareness'. Perhaps a growing malignancy if we consider pollution and climate change. — Tom Storm
Sorry to hear that gloomy outlook. It seems to focus on the small percentage of bad stuff that the media calls "news" : "if it bleeds, it leads". I would hope that philosophers could ignore the gory headlines to see the 98% of good stuff that goes un-reported. Ironically, some people seem to think that cynicism makes you appear smarter than the happy-go-lucky sheep.
Like the horizon, Utopia is always somewhere off in the future, and recedes as fast as we approach. But the confidence that we can get closer is what drives the change-agents in the world. For example, catalytic entrepreneur Elon Musk is afraid of a Matrix-like takeover by AI machines, and possible eradication of meat people. But he retains a positive outlook, that humans will survive, and perhaps prevail, by adapting, even by emigrating to Mars. That dynamic of bad now vs good future seems to be what drives him to be such a technological innovator.
Throughout the centuries, philosophers have been acutely aware of the bad stuff, but stoically focused on making it better, incrementally, bit by bit. Biological evolution takes eons to make significant improvements in the status quo. And social improvement does not advance nearly as fast as technological progression. But that's only because society consists of conflict-of-interest people, not cog & wheel machines. A philosophy of Optimism may not be justified, but Pragmatism works.
Why do so many people believe that cynicism is a sign of intelligence?
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog ... cal-genius
Evolutionary Progress?
How could anyone who accepts an evolutionary view of life deny that progress has occurred?
https://watermark.silverchair.com/50-5-451.pdf
Sorry to hear that gloomy outlook. It seems to focus on the small percentage of bad stuff that the media calls "news" : "if it bleeds, it leads". I would hope that philosophers could ignore the gory headlines to see the 98% of good stuff that goes un-reported. Ironically, some people seem to think that cynicism makes you appear smarter than the happy-go-lucky sheep.
Like the horizon, Utopia is always somewhere off in the future, and recedes as fast as we approach. But the confidence that we can get closer is what drives the change-agents in the world. For example, catalytic entrepreneur Elon Musk is afraid of a Matrix-like takeover by AI machines, and possible eradication of meat people. But he retains a positive outlook, that humans will survive, and perhaps prevail, by adapting, even by emigrating to Mars. That dynamic of bad now vs good future seems to be what drives him to be such a technological innovator.
Throughout the centuries, philosophers have been acutely aware of the bad stuff, but stoically focused on making it better, incrementally, bit by bit. Biological evolution takes eons to make significant improvements in the status quo. And social improvement does not advance nearly as fast as technological progression. But that's only because society consists of conflict-of-interest people, not cog & wheel machines. A philosophy of Optimism may not be justified, but Pragmatism works.
Why do so many people believe that cynicism is a sign of intelligence?
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog ... cal-genius
Evolutionary Progress?
How could anyone who accepts an evolutionary view of life deny that progress has occurred?
https://watermark.silverchair.com/50-5-451.pdf
Re: TPF : Hard Problem of Consciousness
Holism is one of your main themes?
What are some specific ways materialism reasons erroneously when arriving at its reductionism? — ucarr
Yes, but it has nothing to do with New Age or Eastern religions. As a scientific concept, Holism is now called Systems Theory. Reductionism is appropriate (not erroneous) for scientific applications, such as chemistry, which depends on knowing how single elements affect combinations. For example, carbon typically contributes energetic bonds to compounds, such as coal and carbohydrates. But flammable hydrogen & oxygen combine to produce fire-quenching water H2O. Hence, its holistic properties are different from those of the elements.
Holism though, is more appropriate for philosophical applications that study complex combinations of elements. The Santa Fe Institute, near Los Alamos, New Mexico studies complex systems, both natural and artificial, to discover their properties & potentialities. The human Mind is an example of an extremely complex biological system that mysteriously gives rise to the non-physical topic of this thread : Consciousness. If you dissect a brain down to sub-atomic particles, you will not find any consciousness, because it is a holistic quality, that emerges only when all the parts are integrated into a multi-level functional system.
Systems Theory/Holism :
A holistic view of a system encompasses the complete, entire view of that system. Holism emphasizes that the state of a system must be assessed in its entirety and cannot be assessed through its independent member parts.
https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Systems_Theory/Holism
Holism and Reductionism :
Holism emphasizes the interconnectedness and interdependence of different aspects of behavior, whereas reductionism breaks down behavior into simpler components. Holism considers the context and complexity of human behavior, while reductionism seeks to isolate and study individual components in isolation.
https://studymind.co.uk/notes/holism-and-reductionism/
What is an example of Complexity Science?
For example, the Internet can be represented as a network composed of nodes (computers) and links (direct connections between computers). Other examples of complex networks include social networks, financial institution interdependencies, airline networks, and biological networks.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complex_system
Since you cite this quote from Lund University, I assume it speaks for you. Is it your understanding principles, by definition, are theoretical and therefore subject to revision? . . . . I'm not sure I buy your distinction . . . — ucarr
No. I know nothing about Lund, beyond the words of the quote. I found that definition on Google, to provide you with an "expert" opinion on "theoretical philosophy", since you seemed to be unaware of the concept. My "distinction" between "theoretical" math and "practical" science is that math deals with abstract (mental) concepts, while science works on concrete (material) objects. For that reason, Math is more like philosophy than chemistry.
Can pure mathematics be considered a branch of philosophy? :
Pure mathematics can be considered a branch of philosophy in the sense that it deals with fundamental questions about the nature of reality
https://www.quora.com/Can-pure-mathemat ... philosophy
What’s important for Enformaction is that it not distort the degree to which its multi-mode holism differs from my unary physical holism. The difference is small, not large. The former parallels material/undefined/immaterial whereas the latter subsumes these three categories. — ucarr
I don't understand your characterization of "multi-mode" vs "unitary". I call EnFormAction a "shapeshifter", because like physical energy, it can transform into a variety of manifestations. The most famous example is Einstein's E=MC^2 equation of invisible Energy and tangible Matter and a non-dimensional number. They are different expressions of the same essential substance.
But my thesis goes even further to postulate that several "modes" or phases of unitary EFA are : Energy, Matter, and Mind. I also apply that notion of transformation to the common-but-mysterious physical Phase Transitions, such as plasma-water-steam-ice. In terms of Deacon's triad, EFA serves the causal functions of Thermodynamic, Morpheodynamic, and Teleonomic. Are you familiar with the Holistic concept of Emergence? Will you explain how your "unitary physical holism" works?
EnFormAction :
For technical treatments, I had to make-up a new word to summarize the multilevel and multiform roles of generic Information in the ongoing creative act of Evolution. I call it EnFormAction. . . . As a supplement to the mainstream materialistic (scientific) theory of Causation, EnFormAction is intended to be an evocative label for a well-known, but somewhat mysterious, feature of physics : the Emergent process of Phase Change (or state transitions) from one kind (stable form) of matter to another. These sequential emanations take the structural pattern of a logical hierarchy : from solids, to liquids, to gases, and thence to plasma, or vice-versa. But they don't follow the usual rules of direct contact causation.
https://bothandblog3.enformationism.info/page23.html
Holism, reductionism and emergence :
Emergence is the opposite of reduction. Holism is the opposite of separability.
The difference is subtle, but emergence and reduction are concerned with concepts, properties, types of phenomena, being deducible from other (lower level) ones, while holism is concerned with the behaviour of parts [in relation] to a whole [system].
https://philosophy.stackexchange.com/qu ... -emergence
What are some specific ways materialism reasons erroneously when arriving at its reductionism? — ucarr
Yes, but it has nothing to do with New Age or Eastern religions. As a scientific concept, Holism is now called Systems Theory. Reductionism is appropriate (not erroneous) for scientific applications, such as chemistry, which depends on knowing how single elements affect combinations. For example, carbon typically contributes energetic bonds to compounds, such as coal and carbohydrates. But flammable hydrogen & oxygen combine to produce fire-quenching water H2O. Hence, its holistic properties are different from those of the elements.
Holism though, is more appropriate for philosophical applications that study complex combinations of elements. The Santa Fe Institute, near Los Alamos, New Mexico studies complex systems, both natural and artificial, to discover their properties & potentialities. The human Mind is an example of an extremely complex biological system that mysteriously gives rise to the non-physical topic of this thread : Consciousness. If you dissect a brain down to sub-atomic particles, you will not find any consciousness, because it is a holistic quality, that emerges only when all the parts are integrated into a multi-level functional system.
Systems Theory/Holism :
A holistic view of a system encompasses the complete, entire view of that system. Holism emphasizes that the state of a system must be assessed in its entirety and cannot be assessed through its independent member parts.
https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Systems_Theory/Holism
Holism and Reductionism :
Holism emphasizes the interconnectedness and interdependence of different aspects of behavior, whereas reductionism breaks down behavior into simpler components. Holism considers the context and complexity of human behavior, while reductionism seeks to isolate and study individual components in isolation.
https://studymind.co.uk/notes/holism-and-reductionism/
What is an example of Complexity Science?
For example, the Internet can be represented as a network composed of nodes (computers) and links (direct connections between computers). Other examples of complex networks include social networks, financial institution interdependencies, airline networks, and biological networks.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complex_system
Since you cite this quote from Lund University, I assume it speaks for you. Is it your understanding principles, by definition, are theoretical and therefore subject to revision? . . . . I'm not sure I buy your distinction . . . — ucarr
No. I know nothing about Lund, beyond the words of the quote. I found that definition on Google, to provide you with an "expert" opinion on "theoretical philosophy", since you seemed to be unaware of the concept. My "distinction" between "theoretical" math and "practical" science is that math deals with abstract (mental) concepts, while science works on concrete (material) objects. For that reason, Math is more like philosophy than chemistry.
Can pure mathematics be considered a branch of philosophy? :
Pure mathematics can be considered a branch of philosophy in the sense that it deals with fundamental questions about the nature of reality
https://www.quora.com/Can-pure-mathemat ... philosophy
What’s important for Enformaction is that it not distort the degree to which its multi-mode holism differs from my unary physical holism. The difference is small, not large. The former parallels material/undefined/immaterial whereas the latter subsumes these three categories. — ucarr
I don't understand your characterization of "multi-mode" vs "unitary". I call EnFormAction a "shapeshifter", because like physical energy, it can transform into a variety of manifestations. The most famous example is Einstein's E=MC^2 equation of invisible Energy and tangible Matter and a non-dimensional number. They are different expressions of the same essential substance.
But my thesis goes even further to postulate that several "modes" or phases of unitary EFA are : Energy, Matter, and Mind. I also apply that notion of transformation to the common-but-mysterious physical Phase Transitions, such as plasma-water-steam-ice. In terms of Deacon's triad, EFA serves the causal functions of Thermodynamic, Morpheodynamic, and Teleonomic. Are you familiar with the Holistic concept of Emergence? Will you explain how your "unitary physical holism" works?
EnFormAction :
For technical treatments, I had to make-up a new word to summarize the multilevel and multiform roles of generic Information in the ongoing creative act of Evolution. I call it EnFormAction. . . . As a supplement to the mainstream materialistic (scientific) theory of Causation, EnFormAction is intended to be an evocative label for a well-known, but somewhat mysterious, feature of physics : the Emergent process of Phase Change (or state transitions) from one kind (stable form) of matter to another. These sequential emanations take the structural pattern of a logical hierarchy : from solids, to liquids, to gases, and thence to plasma, or vice-versa. But they don't follow the usual rules of direct contact causation.
https://bothandblog3.enformationism.info/page23.html
Holism, reductionism and emergence :
Emergence is the opposite of reduction. Holism is the opposite of separability.
The difference is subtle, but emergence and reduction are concerned with concepts, properties, types of phenomena, being deducible from other (lower level) ones, while holism is concerned with the behaviour of parts [in relation] to a whole [system].
https://philosophy.stackexchange.com/qu ... -emergence
Re: TPF : Hard Problem of Consciousness
I'm not sure about that, but I do know that people use philosophy in this way. I wonder why you have introduced cynicism when nothing I have written is cynical. — Tom Storm
I apologize. I was merely looking for an alternative to "Pessimistic". And the colloquial usage of Cynical seemed to imply a generally gloomy outlook. The ancient Cynics were merely dispassionate. I didn't mean to label you as a fault-finding person. Merely one who can't smell the flowers among the thorns.
What is it called when someone is cynical?
The words misanthropic and pessimistic are common synonyms of cynical. While all three words mean "deeply distrustful,"
Why did you drop this question into your response? When did evolution come up? When did progress come up? Are you on a kind of automatic pilot of pedagogical didacticism? — Tom Storm
Your post seemed to imply that the world was going to hell in a handbasket. So, I thought I'd cheer you up with some more positive news --- on an evolutionary scale --- not breaking news of the latest broken bones & spirits. I don't classify myself as either Pessimistic or Optimistic, but more like a Peptomist. I see the bad stuff peripherally, but I prefer to focus on the good stuff. And I "see" evidence of long-term progress in the world on a cosmic scale, that gives me hope that there is light at the end of the tunnel.
Didactic pedagogy means the procedure of teaching that follows guiding principles in a scientific approach. In other words, is a strategy of presenting knowledge, information, and ideas to students in a structurally organized way.
Cosmic%20Progression%20Graph.jpg
I apologize. I was merely looking for an alternative to "Pessimistic". And the colloquial usage of Cynical seemed to imply a generally gloomy outlook. The ancient Cynics were merely dispassionate. I didn't mean to label you as a fault-finding person. Merely one who can't smell the flowers among the thorns.
What is it called when someone is cynical?
The words misanthropic and pessimistic are common synonyms of cynical. While all three words mean "deeply distrustful,"
Why did you drop this question into your response? When did evolution come up? When did progress come up? Are you on a kind of automatic pilot of pedagogical didacticism? — Tom Storm
Your post seemed to imply that the world was going to hell in a handbasket. So, I thought I'd cheer you up with some more positive news --- on an evolutionary scale --- not breaking news of the latest broken bones & spirits. I don't classify myself as either Pessimistic or Optimistic, but more like a Peptomist. I see the bad stuff peripherally, but I prefer to focus on the good stuff. And I "see" evidence of long-term progress in the world on a cosmic scale, that gives me hope that there is light at the end of the tunnel.
Didactic pedagogy means the procedure of teaching that follows guiding principles in a scientific approach. In other words, is a strategy of presenting knowledge, information, and ideas to students in a structurally organized way.
Cosmic%20Progression%20Graph.jpg
Re: TPF : Hard Problem of Consciousness
If non-physicals are showing up you should observe they always can be mapped to a physical brain in location and time. — Mark Nyquist
Immaterial (abstract) entities (essences), such as Consciousness, only "show-up" when a rational Mind infers*1 an invisible immaterial Function associated with a complex material object (brain). You can't "see" the function with your eyes, only with your rational faculty. The mind-function of a brain exists only as a mental representation of an invisible immaterial process of transforming incoming data (grist for the mill) into meaningful outputs (baked bread).
So, to equate Mind with Brain is to commit the Map/Territory semantic fallacy*2. A Function*3 is not a material object, but a mathematical & semantic relationship. For example, "computation" is a function of a mechanical computer. But it's also a function of a human "computer"*4. In such cases, the relevant input & output are mathematical concepts, such as numbers. And the physical materials (copper, steel, plastic, proteins, neurons) are irrelevant to the causal calculation*5, they are merely carriers of information, not the content. Mind is what the brain does, not what it is. Matter is merely the vessel (cup), Mind is the wine.
*1. An inference is the process of reasoning from what we think is true to what else is true.
*2. Map–territory relation :
Mistaking the map for the territory is a logical fallacy that occurs when someone confuses the semantics of a term with what it represents.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Map%E2%80 ... y_relation
*3. What is function and example?
In particular, a function maps each input to exactly one output.
https://study.com/academy/lesson/what-i ... mples.html
*4. What did it mean to be a human computer?
Before there were actual computers, they were people. At NASA, women had to do all the math and science calculations for aircraft and space missions. From 1935 to 1942 more women began to work at NACA because many men volunteered to be in the war. The women that worked for NASA were often called "Human Computers".
https://digitalcommons.macalester.edu/amst_humancomp/
*5. Aboutness and function, says Deacon, is not something added on top of things, but something that emerges from constraints on matter and process. Deacon sees constraint as a form of causality which can be generated intrinsically, simply by processes interacting with each other.
https://somatosphere.com/2014/terrence- ... ture.html/
↪Wayfarer
Immaterial (abstract) entities (essences), such as Consciousness, only "show-up" when a rational Mind infers*1 an invisible immaterial Function associated with a complex material object (brain). You can't "see" the function with your eyes, only with your rational faculty. The mind-function of a brain exists only as a mental representation of an invisible immaterial process of transforming incoming data (grist for the mill) into meaningful outputs (baked bread).
So, to equate Mind with Brain is to commit the Map/Territory semantic fallacy*2. A Function*3 is not a material object, but a mathematical & semantic relationship. For example, "computation" is a function of a mechanical computer. But it's also a function of a human "computer"*4. In such cases, the relevant input & output are mathematical concepts, such as numbers. And the physical materials (copper, steel, plastic, proteins, neurons) are irrelevant to the causal calculation*5, they are merely carriers of information, not the content. Mind is what the brain does, not what it is. Matter is merely the vessel (cup), Mind is the wine.
*1. An inference is the process of reasoning from what we think is true to what else is true.
*2. Map–territory relation :
Mistaking the map for the territory is a logical fallacy that occurs when someone confuses the semantics of a term with what it represents.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Map%E2%80 ... y_relation
*3. What is function and example?
In particular, a function maps each input to exactly one output.
https://study.com/academy/lesson/what-i ... mples.html
*4. What did it mean to be a human computer?
Before there were actual computers, they were people. At NASA, women had to do all the math and science calculations for aircraft and space missions. From 1935 to 1942 more women began to work at NACA because many men volunteered to be in the war. The women that worked for NASA were often called "Human Computers".
https://digitalcommons.macalester.edu/amst_humancomp/
*5. Aboutness and function, says Deacon, is not something added on top of things, but something that emerges from constraints on matter and process. Deacon sees constraint as a form of causality which can be generated intrinsically, simply by processes interacting with each other.
https://somatosphere.com/2014/terrence- ... ture.html/
↪Wayfarer
Re: TPF : Hard Problem of Consciousness
Notice that the realist objection to this argument is invariably along the lines that 'the world must exist anyway, regardless of any observing mind'. But say that this statement always includes an implicit perspective even while conceiving of a world in the absence of an observer. Without a perspective or scale, nothing meaningful can be said or thought about what exists. — Wayfarer
With no background in academic philosophy, I have little depth in the Dualism debate, so I'm just reaching here, not "grasping". My self-acquired quantum physics & information-based worldview seems to require an Idealist foundation ; yet my mundane activities require a Realist belief system. As I have expressed it before : "for all practical (scientific) purposes, I am a Materialist, but for theoretical (philosophical) considerations I am a Mentalist". So, I'm a hybrid animal : an innocent mind in a cartesian demon's lair, so to speak.
My justification for a Mind-first ontology is based --- not on subtle philosophical deduction --- but on the scientific ubiquity of multiform Information, which includes mathematical Ratios, mental Reasoning, and physical inter-relationships, that include so-called "forces"*1 (gravity, sub-atomic bonds) that we observe as "spooky action at a distance"*2. Causal/Absential Information is common to both matter and mind. Therefore, for completely different reasons I came to the same conclusion as Spinoza : that the essence of the world is not a material substance, but a labelled-yet-undefinable abstract concept : God or Nature . . . or demon?.
The Realist worldview seems to assume that Matter is the primary onticity*3, and the only kind of thing that exists. This is understandable, because our 5 senses are tuned for detection of non-self objects outside the Mind. But the Idealist presumption is that Mind-itself is the primary kind of being, hence Body/Matter must be dependent upon or emergent from Mind-stuff. So, the Idealist belief requires a Universal Other Mind (God or what?) to provide the "implicit perspective" that somehow creates the "substance/essence" of a real world, for our senses to sense.
Since several millennia of dualistic debate have not resolved the tension between opposing "implicit" perspectives, why can't we take a lesson from Einstein's Relativity, and conclude that both views may be ultimately true, but the local framing is contingently true? If your frame requires worship, so be it. But my hybrid frame only invites curiosity.
*1. Physical Forces : that by which we measure changes in matter
Consciousness : that by which we know changes in the world
*2. Do forces actually exist or are they merely mathematical constructions that explain real phenomena?
Forces are real phenomena that exist in the physical world. In physics, forces are described and understood through mathematical models, but they are not merely mathematical constructions. Forces can be observed and measured, and they have real effects on the motion and interactions of objects in the universe.
https://www.quora.com/Do-forces-actuall ... -phenomena
Note --- Forces are not "observed" by the senses, but inferred by the rational faculty of Mind. The physical effects are real, but the mental knowledge is ideal.
*3. Onticity : essence of being
↪ucarr
With no background in academic philosophy, I have little depth in the Dualism debate, so I'm just reaching here, not "grasping". My self-acquired quantum physics & information-based worldview seems to require an Idealist foundation ; yet my mundane activities require a Realist belief system. As I have expressed it before : "for all practical (scientific) purposes, I am a Materialist, but for theoretical (philosophical) considerations I am a Mentalist". So, I'm a hybrid animal : an innocent mind in a cartesian demon's lair, so to speak.
My justification for a Mind-first ontology is based --- not on subtle philosophical deduction --- but on the scientific ubiquity of multiform Information, which includes mathematical Ratios, mental Reasoning, and physical inter-relationships, that include so-called "forces"*1 (gravity, sub-atomic bonds) that we observe as "spooky action at a distance"*2. Causal/Absential Information is common to both matter and mind. Therefore, for completely different reasons I came to the same conclusion as Spinoza : that the essence of the world is not a material substance, but a labelled-yet-undefinable abstract concept : God or Nature . . . or demon?.
The Realist worldview seems to assume that Matter is the primary onticity*3, and the only kind of thing that exists. This is understandable, because our 5 senses are tuned for detection of non-self objects outside the Mind. But the Idealist presumption is that Mind-itself is the primary kind of being, hence Body/Matter must be dependent upon or emergent from Mind-stuff. So, the Idealist belief requires a Universal Other Mind (God or what?) to provide the "implicit perspective" that somehow creates the "substance/essence" of a real world, for our senses to sense.
Since several millennia of dualistic debate have not resolved the tension between opposing "implicit" perspectives, why can't we take a lesson from Einstein's Relativity, and conclude that both views may be ultimately true, but the local framing is contingently true? If your frame requires worship, so be it. But my hybrid frame only invites curiosity.
*1. Physical Forces : that by which we measure changes in matter
Consciousness : that by which we know changes in the world
*2. Do forces actually exist or are they merely mathematical constructions that explain real phenomena?
Forces are real phenomena that exist in the physical world. In physics, forces are described and understood through mathematical models, but they are not merely mathematical constructions. Forces can be observed and measured, and they have real effects on the motion and interactions of objects in the universe.
https://www.quora.com/Do-forces-actuall ... -phenomena
Note --- Forces are not "observed" by the senses, but inferred by the rational faculty of Mind. The physical effects are real, but the mental knowledge is ideal.
*3. Onticity : essence of being
↪ucarr
Re: TPF : Hard Problem of Consciousness
Question - Are not both mass and the speed of light invisible? — ucarr
Yes, both are numbers quantifying qualities (properties). Properties (attributes) are rationally inferrable, but not sensibly visible. Why do you ask?
My notion of unary physicalism, like your EnFormAction, encompasses the four phase states you name and furthermore, I currently speculate it also encompasses mind and consciousness via absential materialism, a label that I use to name Deacon's hierarchy of dynamisms: thermo, morpho and teleo. — ucarr
I was not familiar with the term "unary", and I still don't how it is different from "Unitary" or "Holism". Unitary may describe a unique system of parts that together can be considered a single Form (morpho). Holism is similar, but focused more on the internal interrelationships that allow the parts to function together as a unit (teleo).
For my personal philosophical purposes, I make a distinction between "physical" and "material". Material (morpho) typically includes the stuff our senses perceive (what is seems to be), while Physical (thermo) includes the invisible forces & properties that cause a thing to act & react as it does. Please give me a brief definition of "unary physicalism" and "absential materialism".
Might it be correct to say your theory encompasses a system that, going forward from antiquity, encompasses both scientific method and ontic grammar. — ucarr
Please remember that I have no formal training in academic Philosophy. So please tell me how you distinguish between "scientific method" and "ontic grammar". Is the latter unscientific speculation? If so, how does it differ from philosophical speculation or scientific hypothesis?
Yes, both are numbers quantifying qualities (properties). Properties (attributes) are rationally inferrable, but not sensibly visible. Why do you ask?
My notion of unary physicalism, like your EnFormAction, encompasses the four phase states you name and furthermore, I currently speculate it also encompasses mind and consciousness via absential materialism, a label that I use to name Deacon's hierarchy of dynamisms: thermo, morpho and teleo. — ucarr
I was not familiar with the term "unary", and I still don't how it is different from "Unitary" or "Holism". Unitary may describe a unique system of parts that together can be considered a single Form (morpho). Holism is similar, but focused more on the internal interrelationships that allow the parts to function together as a unit (teleo).
For my personal philosophical purposes, I make a distinction between "physical" and "material". Material (morpho) typically includes the stuff our senses perceive (what is seems to be), while Physical (thermo) includes the invisible forces & properties that cause a thing to act & react as it does. Please give me a brief definition of "unary physicalism" and "absential materialism".
Might it be correct to say your theory encompasses a system that, going forward from antiquity, encompasses both scientific method and ontic grammar. — ucarr
Please remember that I have no formal training in academic Philosophy. So please tell me how you distinguish between "scientific method" and "ontic grammar". Is the latter unscientific speculation? If so, how does it differ from philosophical speculation or scientific hypothesis?
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